I'm trying to get together a team for a Darkest Hour (PI) mod, one where Ukraine is well represented, and the big question is what is the timeline here. Who is in charge or really what happened for Ukraine to achieve independence. It is very possible. For example on page 347 on Orest Subtleny's "Ukraine a History" it mentions that " about 300,000 Ukrainian soldiers spontaneously organized themselves into all-Ukrainian unit that swore allegiance to the central rada" and "General Pavlo Skoropadsky placed at the disposal of the Central Rada 40,000 men" unfortunately the foolish Rada didn't think a Military necessary. There are other examples. I'm just asking perhaps for suggestions as to what could happen to lead to a scenario of an independent Ukraine. (starting in 1933, where the player starts).
WI Ukraine gains independence 1917 (for DH mod)
- Thread starter thezerech
- Start date
Generaloberst
Banned
This would probably go better in the Media section.
Also, I could see the Ukraine only as a German puppet state.
Also, I could see the Ukraine only as a German puppet state.
Start as a German puppet state but with emerging Poland Polish Ukrainian alliance is built in late 1918. You will need to buterfly away Polish push to th east but also Ukrainians accomodateing at least some Polish demands. I know hard cookie.
Not necessarily. Poland could push east all over Belarus instead but leave the Ukraine.
Pilsudsky had some fantasy vision of a Ukrainian-Polish alliance, and perhaps this might have something in that direction.
He had indeed. But didn't Polish push towards Kiev destroyed this plans?
I wouldn't say that this should go in media as I wanted to make a discussion thread like this for months, but with the mod I need a TL and I though perhaps if I posted here some interesting ideas would come up. I personally believe that it is possible for L'viv and the rest of Galicia/Volyn to be part of an independent Ukrainian state. If the Rada is overthrown by Skoropadsky, a Sich Rifleman (possibly Archduke Wilhelm von Hapsburg), or Symon Petliura, someone who could raise a large army (the aforementioned 340,000) and command them. They could easily defeat the Reds. Once Ukraine's claims had been reached/truce (Kuban, etc.) with commies. The ZUNR would have declared independence, and have the Chortkiv offensive, properly supported by the rest of Ukraine, they would have no trouble reaching L'viv and defeating the poles perhaps even Haller's blue army, in this scenario with the Ukrainians closer to victory then France and England would most likely support the ZUNR. They were already angry at the poles for using the blue army against Ukraine, instead of the Bolsheviks.
As an answer to the OP, yes an independent Ukraine is possible but its not going to be easy. Firstly, sooner rather then later the Ukraine is going to end up under Red Army control, assuming of course that the Russian Civil War goes similar if not the same as IOTL. Wrangel in the Crimea won't be able to oust the Reds and, once he's defeated as IOTL, the whole of the Ukraine will be under the control of the Bolsheviks.
Otherwise, you could explain the existence of an "independent" Ukraine by having Germany win WWI and consequently go on to rule Poland, the Ukraine, etc. as eastern client states.
Or, you could have Poland win an overwhelming (and unlikely) victory in the Soviet-Polish War and go on to unite Belorussia and Ukraine into a federal union under Polish control. The Ukraine still wouldn't be entirely independent in this scenario, and IMHO is similar to the situation that the Ukraine in real life post-civil war faced (i.e. the Ukraine existing as a federal state in a much larger union of multiple nations)
All of that being said, its hard to create a scenario wherein the Ukraine gains full independence.
If we butterfly away the October Revolution (and thus the Russian Civil War), we might be able to achieve an independent Ukraine as Ukrainian nationalism and talk of separation from Russia proper was already taking place under the ineffectual Provisional Government. But then we still have a situation where the Germans inevitably move on to occupy the Ukraine during their counteroffensive on the Eastern Front, which means that we'd almost have to butterfly away WWI as well to achieve true Ukrainian independence. Even then, if we ruled out the Great War as a factor, the butterflies would be such that the Ukraine still wouldn't necessarily gain independence especially assuming that the Russian Empire stays intact in the absence of WWI.
My point is that its really hard to simply make the Ukraine (or any of the Russian minority nationalities for that matter) truly independent as the situation both in real life and in your AH scenario is unfortunately very complex.
I'd suggest that you keep working on your mod, take other people's suggestions, and try to come up with a plausible way for the Ukraine to achieve at the very least semi-independence if not full independence. Do your homework too, as research can go a long way in creating a decent alternate history scenario.
I look forward to playing your mod, and already I think that it is interesting. Keep working at it, and try to carefully build up your AH timeline in the same vein as a fantasy world - a good alternate history is well thought-out, thoroughly researched, and imaginative.
I myself might make a mod, based off of a defunct timeline of mine.
Otherwise, you could explain the existence of an "independent" Ukraine by having Germany win WWI and consequently go on to rule Poland, the Ukraine, etc. as eastern client states.
Or, you could have Poland win an overwhelming (and unlikely) victory in the Soviet-Polish War and go on to unite Belorussia and Ukraine into a federal union under Polish control. The Ukraine still wouldn't be entirely independent in this scenario, and IMHO is similar to the situation that the Ukraine in real life post-civil war faced (i.e. the Ukraine existing as a federal state in a much larger union of multiple nations)
All of that being said, its hard to create a scenario wherein the Ukraine gains full independence.
If we butterfly away the October Revolution (and thus the Russian Civil War), we might be able to achieve an independent Ukraine as Ukrainian nationalism and talk of separation from Russia proper was already taking place under the ineffectual Provisional Government. But then we still have a situation where the Germans inevitably move on to occupy the Ukraine during their counteroffensive on the Eastern Front, which means that we'd almost have to butterfly away WWI as well to achieve true Ukrainian independence. Even then, if we ruled out the Great War as a factor, the butterflies would be such that the Ukraine still wouldn't necessarily gain independence especially assuming that the Russian Empire stays intact in the absence of WWI.
My point is that its really hard to simply make the Ukraine (or any of the Russian minority nationalities for that matter) truly independent as the situation both in real life and in your AH scenario is unfortunately very complex.
I'd suggest that you keep working on your mod, take other people's suggestions, and try to come up with a plausible way for the Ukraine to achieve at the very least semi-independence if not full independence. Do your homework too, as research can go a long way in creating a decent alternate history scenario.
I look forward to playing your mod, and already I think that it is interesting. Keep working at it, and try to carefully build up your AH timeline in the same vein as a fantasy world - a good alternate history is well thought-out, thoroughly researched, and imaginative.
I myself might make a mod, based off of a defunct timeline of mine.
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Nonsense! This Ukraine will fight off the Bolsheviks, and Poland, if they dare attack Ukraine.
Dirk_Pitt
Banned
AND THE ALIEN SPAGHETTI MONSTERS FROM SPACE!!!
UKRAINE STRONK!!! UKRAINE NEED NOT GERMAN ARMS!!!
Just to reiterate. When I mentioned the 340,000 men that was 340,000 that didn't join the rada. With 340,000 extra men from the begining if our POD is a much earlier coup by Skoropadsky where he as Hetman accepts the 300,000 as well as his 40,000 which he presumably uses to take power. This would give CP support to Ukraine, but Skoropadsky's ties with the white Russians wouldn't mean the Allies hate him once the war is over. He could reach an agreement with Petliura or have him as a PM to Skoropadsky. With that kind of Manpower they could easily defeat the poles during the Chortkiv offensive. I would suggest Wilhelm von Hapsburg to be Hetman but that's to close to KR, in my opinion though it'd certainly be interesting.