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#61
March 21st, 2005, 09:19 AM
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Long story short: Goering dies a little later on, Galland takes power, Germany wins the air war. Germany wins the air war, they win the whole war.
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#62
March 22nd, 2005, 01:05 AM
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 To be frank I stole the idea from Tom Clancey in Red Storm Rising... Besides, the Germans needed somthing to go wrong for them!  Quote:
One question, though. How will the British wage an offensive bomber war angainst Germany if the Luftwaffe does not bomb British cities? Will the RAF be the first to hit a city? Best regards! - Bluenote.
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Honeste vivere, alterum non ladere, suum cuique tribuere!
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#63
March 28th, 2005, 01:19 PM
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I came, I saw…
I came, I saw…
Let us have peace, let us have life Let us escape the cruel night Let us have time, let the sun shine Let us beware the deadly sign The day is coming Armageddon’s near Inferno’s coming Can we survive the blitzkrieg? The blitzkrieg The blitzkrieg - Metallica, Blitzkrieg. Lashing out the action, returning the reaction Weak are ripped and torn away Hypnotizing power, crushing all that cower Battery is here to stay - Metallica, Battery. In most of the world’s capitals, including Berlin, politicians and senior officers alike looked at the Norwegian campaign with a mix of stunned fear and surprise. In OKM, Grand Admiral Raeder feared that the succes of the Kriegsmarine, or more correctly the KLK – the Kriegsmarine’s airforce -, would give Hitler some rather unreals ideas about its capabilities. In both the OKL and OKH, the commanders were more surprised than fearfull, but somehow they foresaw this success leading to more and more exagerated war aims. London was, however, without doubt, along with Paris, the capital most affected by the Norwegian disaster, or Churchill’s Folly. The Chamberlain government only stayed in power with the slightest of margins, as the opposition, with Churchill out of the picture for good, could not muster a viable alternative. Among the senior air force and naval officers a state of near panick was evident, as the deceisiveness of air superiority and the ability of air power to radically influence a given battle began to sink in. It began to dawn on several of the more visionary generals and admirals that the one-tracked focus on bombers, or offensive air power, was perhaps wrong, and that more fighters were needed to gain the apparent vital air superiority. It was, however, too late. Operation Feldherrenhalle had barely ended, but already the Panzers were rolling again. This time westwards… The political situation in Germany after Göring’s death had not initially played in Hitler’s favour as the reactionary forces, as the Nazis called them, within the armed forces seemed to strengthen. This was one of the reasons why Bormann had been so keen to built up the Luftwaffe, not to mentioned the fact that he himself benefitted politically from its succcesses, as it was the youngest and most loyal branch of the Wehrmacht. The Kriegsmarine had proven to be very apolitical, whereas the Heer was full of oldschool Junckers and we-know-best-types. For a long time Hitler lacked the political power to settle the score with said generals, so he and his croonies turned to other means; they looked far and wide for trustwothy officers, not necessarily Nazis, but people whom the junckers in OKH and OKW at least didn’t like, promoted them and whenever possible put them in key positions. In early 1940, this had gotten men like Hausser, Guderian, Rommel, Schörner, Model and von Manstein into either senior command slots or other equally powerfull positions – the apolitical Erich von Manstein was for example head of OKW’s operational department, while Heinrich Guderian lead the Schnelltruppen – basically the Panzer forces – and the aging Paul Hausser was head of the OKH. Men like Rommel. Schörner and Model led the Armies bursting into France. The invasion of Western Europe - Luxembourg, Holand, Belgium and France - was devised by the von Manstein-Hausser-Guderian trio. Basically it called for a diversionary attack, so to say, on Holland and Belgium in the hope of drawing the Allied Armies north, followed by a powerfull panzer force cutting through the Ardennes region, thus avoiding the Maginot line, and racing for the Channel Coast. If everything worked out according to the plan - Operation Hermann -, most of the Allied land forces would be caught in Belgium. The ultimate goal of Opr. Hermann was to force the British and French governments to seek an armistice and eventuallly recognize Germany’s claims in Eastern Europe and perhaps to rearrange the Franco-German border a bit here and there. After the impressive German victory in Norway Hitler’s lust for more grew, though…. In early May, when the weather was just right, Luftwaffe unleashed a series of attacks on Belgian and Dutch airfields. Swarms of primarily Ju-87’s, Ju-88’s and He-111’s, loosely escorted by Me-109’s, overcame whatever limited defenses the Dutch and Belgian air forces could mount. Within the first two days, the air power of mentioned countries were reduced to nothing, and the Luftwaffe turned to France. The first operational squadrone of the new Henschel Hs-129 close support aircraft took to the air during those initial assaults, as did the twin-37mm armed Ju-87’s. The idea of a heavy quick-firing gun instead of bombs proved to be nearly brilliant as the battle of Montcornet showed. An armoured counter-attack by the French 4th Division threatened to rip a hole in the German front, but the French attack got stopped in its tracks by continious air attacks by Ju-87’s and a handfull of the extremely deadly Hs-129. France had, as Britain, focused on building an impresive bomber force, and thus neglecting the fighter arm of their air force. This proved to be a major mistake and the France Armee l’Air was completely unable to stop the waves of German aircraft washing in over its borders. Backed by a handfull of RADAR-equiped Do-19’s the German fighters made short work of any serious resistance put up by the French fighters, and the German CAS and medium bombers thereafter more or less roamed at will. As the Stuka and Panzerknacker’s supported the advancing armies, the medium bombers struck hard at rail heads, supply dumps and communication centers. The German air crews had had plenty of training and performed their task with great success. The combination of almost total air superiority, close air support and continious interdiction was a winning one. The French were were one the ropes from day one, to paraphrase Air General Udet. The heroic exploits of the German pilots during the Battle for France would later be made into a very successful Riefenstahl-movie, Die Jungen Adler – the Young Eagles –, wich featured many of the most prominent young German aces, Gallant and Mölders amongst others. The fighter pilots soon became the superstars and darlings of the Reich at the time. Eventhough Adolf Gallant’s cartoon painted Me-109 would win even more famed in the victorious Battle of Britain... During the opening stages of the Battle for France, thousands of SD-4-H1 cluster bombs, which had proven so usefull and deadly in Norway, and its bigger brother the SD-6-G, was dropped on French roads and air fields with good results, to say the least. The submunitions ruined roads as well as runways and made the clean-up process expensive and costly because of the timer-set and rigged bomblets left behind. The British and French air forces did, however, try to take the war to the Germans, but again the fighter-heavy Luftwaffe, along with its impressive ability to control the skies both at the front and over its homeland, proved to much for the inexperienced Allies and each attempt only increased the losses of their air forces. In late May, 1940, the main Allied Armies had been trapped in a shrinking pocket in southwestern Belgium – around a coastal town called Dunkerque -, the French government had been forced to flee Paris as the city was enveloped by German panzers under the command of Hasso von Manteuffle – and had apparently begun to sue for peace in some form -, and RAF had relocated their last operational squadrones from France to southern Britain, soon followed by several French squadrones. Where the French government had begun to explore the possibily of an armistice, the Dutch and Begian goverments had already surrendered. The fall of the impregnable fortress of Eben Emael on the very first day of Operation Hermann had shaken the Belgians badly – General Student and his airmobile stormpioneers would all later be congratulated and showered in medals by an exuberant Hitler. Likewise had the airborne operations and Brandenburger-infiltrations in Holland along with the rapid German advances on every part of the front. With the Low Countries out of the picture, and France crumbling fast, the OKH and OKL concentrated on the remaining battleworthy remnants of the Allied Armies in Dunkerque. At the same time an opportunist Stalin launched the long awaited invasion of Finland and the Baltic countries. The three small Baltics states were overrun without much of a problem, whereas the Red Army soon bogged down in Finland due to both Finnish restistance and its own incompetence. In the Mediterranean the Italian dictator, Benito Mussolini, began eyeing the French and British possessions in North Africa as well as Greece and Yugoslavia on the Balkans with evergrowing interest.
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Honeste vivere, alterum non ladere, suum cuique tribuere!
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#64
March 28th, 2005, 01:57 PM
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I believe it's Galland not Gallant. It is a nice ironic touch naming an operation after the person whose elimination makes things better. In this TL he would be seen as a mythic father figure and probably there are alt historians who say "if only he had lived longer". You might allow for a minor setback--eg. a helicopter raid into enemy rear areas gets mauled or some of the Hs129 have their guns jam from overheating.
Anyway very interesting. Keep it up. Tom
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#65
March 28th, 2005, 06:54 PM
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Great Job on the TL Mr. Bluenote! Keep it up!
I eagerly await the next installment!
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#66
March 28th, 2005, 06:59 PM
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I assume that a Göring who died in the mid-30's will have a very unique standing in Nazi mythology, not to mention in Hitler's warped mind, just as you yourself suspect. That's why I renamed OTL's Condor Legion, Weserübung and Fall Gelb...Quote:
But yes, in general, the Germans need a few setbacks. That's why I included the somewhat idiotic invasion of Iceland in the last post... oh, and the sinking of Graff Spee by the Hood! Quote:
So, as I asked earlier, will RAF order an all-out bomber attack on German cities?! Or how will they respond (besides getting as many fighters to the squadrones as possible, that is)?! Best regards! - Bluenote.
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Honeste vivere, alterum non ladere, suum cuique tribuere!
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#67
March 28th, 2005, 09:31 PM
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What about weapon production problems which happen in OTL, lack of male factory and farm workers, food shortage in Germany, and with Germany early victory 1939 and 1940, will they received trade income and raw industrial supplies from Italy and Spain? Outstanding ATL TimeLine Keep up the good work.
What about Germany's Aircraft Carrier program? What about Germany's Jet Aircraft Program?
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#68
March 28th, 2005, 09:42 PM
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One thing you do with a setback here and there is that it teaches the Luftwaffe some valuable lessons (and the Fatfree Luftwaffe is more likely to be able to admit mistakes then the OTL version with the megalomaniac on drugs). This really is the historical process--there is a good idea but it's not a perfect idea and it has teething problems.
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#69
March 29th, 2005, 11:03 AM
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I came, I saw…
Let us have peace, let us have life Let us escape the cruel night Let us have time, let the sun shine Let us beware the deadly sign The day is coming Armageddon’s near Inferno’s coming Can we survive the blitzkrieg? The blitzkrieg The blitzkrieg - Metallica, Blitzkrieg. Lashing out the action, returning the reaction Weak are ripped and torn away Hypnotizing power, crushing all that cower Battery is here to stay - Metallica, Battery. In most of the world’s capitals, including Berlin, politicians and senior officers alike looked at the Norwegian campaign with a mix of stunned fear and surprise. In OKM, Grand Admiral Raeder feared that the succes of the Kriegsmarine, or more correctly the KLK – the Kriegsmarine’s airforce -, would give Hitler some rather unreals ideas about its capabilities. In both the OKL and OKH, the commanders were more surprised than fearfull, but somehow they foresaw this success leading to more and more exagerated war aims. London was, however, without doubt, along with Paris, the capital most affected by the Norwegian disaster, or Churchill’s Folly. The Chamberlain government only stayed in power with the slightest of margins, as the opposition, with Churchill out of the picture for good, could not muster a viable alternative. Among the senior air force and naval officers a state of near panick was evident, as the deceisiveness of air superiority and the ability of air power to radically influence a given battle began to sink in. It began to dawn on several of the more visionary generals and admirals that the one-tracked focus on bombers, or offensive air power, was perhaps wrong, and that more fighters were needed to gain the apparent vital air superiority. It was, however, too late. Operation Feldherrenhalle had barely ended, but already the Panzers were rolling again. This time westwards… The political situation in Germany after Göring’s death had not initially played out in Hitler’s favour as the reactionary forces, as the Nazis called them, within the armed forces seemed to strengthen. This was one of the reasons why Bormann had been so keen to built up the Luftwaffe, not to mentioned the fact that he himself benefitted politically from its succcesses, as it was the youngest and most loyal branch of the Wehrmacht. The Kriegsmarine had proven to be very apolitical, whereas the Heer was full of old-school Junckers and we-know-best-types. For a long time Hitler lacked the political power to settle the score with said generals, so he and his croonies turned to other means; they looked far and wide for trustwothy officers, not necessarily Nazis, but people whom the junckers in OKH and OKW at least didn’t like, promoted them and whenever possible put them in key positions. In early 1940, this had gotten men like Hausser, Guderian, Rommel, Schörner, Model and von Manstein into either senior command slots or other equally powerfull positions – the apolitical Erich von Manstein was for example head of OKW’s operational department, while Heinrich Guderian lead the Schnelltruppen – basically the Panzer forces – and the aging Paul Hausser was head of the OKH. Men like Rommel. Schörner and Model led the Armies bursting into France. The invasion of Western Europe - Luxembourg, Holand, Belgium and France - was devised by the von Manstein-Hausser-Guderian trio. Basically it called for a diversionary attack, so to say, on Holland and Belgium in the hope of drawing the Allied Armies north, followed by a powerfull panzer force cutting through the Ardennes region, thus avoiding the Maginot line, and racing for the Channel Coast. If everything worked out according to the plan - Operation Hermann -, most of the Allied land forces would be caught in Belgium. The ultimate goal of Opr. Hermann was to force the British and French governments to seek an armistice and eventuallly recognize Germany’s claims in Eastern Europe and perhaps to rearrange the Franco-German border a bit here and there. After the impressive German victory in Norway Hitler’s lust for more grew, though…. In early May, when the weather was just right, Luftwaffe unleashed a series of attacks on Belgian and Dutch airfields. Swarms of primarily Ju-87’s, Ju-88’s and He-111’s, loosely escorted by Me-109’s, overcame whatever limited defenses the Dutch and Belgian air forces could mount. Within the first two days, the air power of mentioned countries were reduced to nothing, and the Luftwaffe turned to France. The first operational squadrone of the new Henschel Hs-129 close support aircraft took to the air during those initial assaults, as did the twin-37mm armed Ju-87’s. The idea of a heavy quick-firing gun instead of bombs proved to be nearly brilliant as the battle of Montcornet showed. An armoured counter-attack by the French 4th Division threatened to rip a hole in the German front, but the French attack got stopped in its tracks by continious air attacks by Ju-87’s and a handfull of the extremely deadly Hs-129. France had, as Britain, focused on building an impresive bomber force, and thus neglecting the fighter arm of their air force. This proved to be a major mistake and the France Armee l’Air was completely unable to stop the waves of German aircraft washing in over its borders. Backed by a handfull of RADAR-equiped Do-19’s the German fighters made short work of any serious resistance put up by the French fighters, and the German CAS and medium bombers thereafter more or less roamed at will. As the Stuka and Panzerknacker’s supported the advancing armies with both pinpoint and terror attacks – the mere sound of the howling Stuka’s often brought fear to the French soldiers -, and the medium bombers struck hard at rail heads, supply dumps and communication centers the French will to fight slowly began to crumble. The German air crews had had plenty of training and on-the-job experience performed their task with great success and haunted the retreating French armies. The combination of almost total air superiority, close air support and continious interdiction was a winning one. The French were on the ropes from day one, to paraphrase Air General Udet, who along with his old partner from the Hermann Göring Legion’s adventures in Spain, Wolfram von Richthofen, headed Luftwaffe’s operations in Western Europe, albeit under the Chief-of-Staff, Air General Albert Kesselring’s, personal supervision, though. The heroic exploits of the German pilots during the Battle for France would later be made into a very successful Riefenstahl-movie, Die Jungen Adler – the Young Eagles –, wich featured many of the most prominent young German aces, Galland, Steinhof, Lutzow and Mölders amongst others. The fighter pilots soon became the superstars and darlings of the Reich at the time. Adolf Galland’s cartoon painted Me-109 would win even more fame, and he himself rapid promotion, in the victorious Battle of Britain, where his entire squadrone, JG-26, would be named after him; the Galland Circus... During the opening stages of the Battle for France, thousands of SD-4-H1 cluster bombs, which had proven so usefull and deadly in Norway, and its bigger brother the SD-6-G, was dropped on French roads and air fields with good results, to say the least. The submunitions ruined roads as well as runways and made the clean-up process expensive and costly because of the timer-set and rigged bomblets left behind. The British and French air forces did, however, try to take the war to the Germans, but again the fighter-heavy Luftwaffe, along with its impressive ability to control the skies both at the front and over its homeland, proved to much for the inexperienced Allies and each attempt only increased the losses of their air forces. The only Allied plane to have some successes were the heavy Short Sterling, which at times were able to survive air attacks the lighter bombers could not. In late May, 1940, the main Allied Armies had been trapped in a shrinking pocket in southwestern Belgium – around a coastal town called Dunkerque -, the French government had been forced to flee Paris as the city was enveloped by German panzers under the command of Hasso von Manteuffle – and had apparently begun to sue for peace in some form -, and RAF had relocated their last operational squadrones from France to southern Britain, soon followed by several French squadrones. During General von Manteuffel’s crossing of the River Meuse, helicopers and fallschrimjägers were used to spearhead the attack. This early go at a combined arms operation nearly failed capastrophically as the airmobile troops ran into heavy fire from emplaced French 20mm anti-aircraft guns on the opposite side of the Meuse. All the employed Fa-284. Focke-Achgelis helicopters sufferede extensive damage, and a full third – along with their crews and compliment of 24 paratroops each - were lost. Luftwaffe were quick to glose this over, but Student, and the senior leadership in the OKL, never forgot the Meuse Incident… Where the French government had begun to explore the possibily of an armistice, the Dutch and Begian goverments had already surrendered. The fall of the impregnable fortress of Eben Emael on the very first day of Operation Hermann had shaken the Belgians badly – General Student and his airmobile stormpioneers would all later be congratulated and showered in medals by an exuberant Hitler – who knew nothing of the Meuse Incident. Likewise had the airborne operations and Brandenburger-infiltrations in Holland along with the rapid German advances on every part of the front. With the Low Countries out of the picture, and France crumbling fast, the OKH and OKL concentrated on the remaining battleworthy remnants of the Allied Armies in Dunkerque. At the same time an opportunist Stalin launched the long awaited invasion of Finland and the Baltic countries. The three small Baltics states were overrun without much of a problem, whereas the Red Army soon bogged down in Finland due to both Finnish restistance and its own incompetence. In the Mediterranean the Italian dictator, Benito Mussolini, began eyeing the French and British possessions in North Africa as well as Greece and Yugoslavia on the Balkans with evergrowing interest. Quote:
Supplies from Italy?! What might that be, Orion? The German successes will likely prompt the Balkan nations to focus more on Germany as a market - especially after the Brits drop out of the war. Basically the Germans are better off in this ATL then in OTL... And thank you very much by the way, Orion! Glad to hear it, and I will! Quote:
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) and some about the Short Sterling...Thanks for all your comments, guys! I really appriciate it! Now, I'm off the read the latets installment of Opr.Unicorn in the Writer's Forum... oh, goody, goody, goody...  Best regards! - Mr.Bluenote.
__________________
Honeste vivere, alterum non ladere, suum cuique tribuere!
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#70
March 29th, 2005, 11:13 PM
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Hey Mr. Bluenote you might want to remember the He 219 "Uhu" which was the last and probably best nightfighter of the war in OTL.
However it was designed around 1940 as a replacement for the Me-110. It was basically a multi-role fighter and was easily capable of filling many roles including all-weather fighter, night fighter, ground attack aircraft, torpedo bomber... Anyhow it was rejected due to its tricycle landing gear and a general apathy of the Nazi government. Perhaps it could get somewhere in this TL... Link
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#71
March 29th, 2005, 11:19 PM
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Messerschmitt Planes:
110 was good. 210 sucked. 310 rocked. 109 was good 190 rocked 262 rocked 163 was good 263 was better 363 would've rocked
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#72
March 30th, 2005, 12:21 AM
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But as you yourself says, it was developed in OTL in 1941 were the western sky was still contested so to say. In this ATL there are no fighting on the Western Front from late 1940 to sometime in mid 1944. So the question is, will the Luftwaffe/RLM spend resources on developing night-fighters to battle the Soviets?! Furthermore it seems like Milch was the man who tried to stop the Uhu's development and Milch is the Big Man in this ATL, so... Still it's a nasty (not so) little plane, that I kinda like... hm, maybe a later variant appears after the Brits re-enter the war in '44? But thanks for pointing out all these Luftwaffe planes, Fearless - I would never have found the Fieseler Torpedo Bomber without your hints! Quote:
Best regards! - Mr.Bluenote.
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Honeste vivere, alterum non ladere, suum cuique tribuere!
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#73
March 30th, 2005, 12:35 AM
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i was referring to the FW190....what other planes were called the "190" in germany during ww2?
I was going to call the Bf110 "utter crap" but then remembered that it was a Messerschmitt plane... Oh yeah...forgot the 410, better than the 310, which was better than the 210.
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#74
March 30th, 2005, 12:43 AM
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What exactly was the Me-310, Haps? Best regards and all! - B.
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Honeste vivere, alterum non ladere, suum cuique tribuere!
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#75
March 30th, 2005, 12:58 AM
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sorry, i meant that mos tof 'em were messr. schmitty
the 310 was inbetween the 210 and 410...what, can't you count? *yuk yuk yuk*
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#76
March 30th, 2005, 02:16 AM
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I like the changes. The helicopter raid gone bad will teach the Germans a good lesson about limitations of their new toy. Actually one thing about the Fatfree Luftwaffe is that they are less likely to make extravagant claims to Hitler about what they can accomplish (Dunkerque, Sea Lion, Stalingrad, etc.)
I think I probably asked this before, but did you look at the FW 187 as a possible escort fighter--perhaps in a limited production of say 3 gruppen? Tom
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#77
March 31st, 2005, 09:32 AM
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I thought only a Fw190 existed.
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#78
March 31st, 2005, 03:53 PM
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I've been reading this, and it's interesting. But coudl development of a Strategic arm of the Luftwaffe hurt it? How many Stukas and such aren't being produced as a result?
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#80
March 31st, 2005, 11:52 PM
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I'm currently toying with the idea of having Hitler sack Wever after Dunkerque when Wever refuses to endorse an ATL Sea Lion (a paratroop attack on the south coast or some such idiocy...). Quote:
Seems to be a good plane - didn't btw know there were private air units in Germany during WW2. Anyway, if the Me-109 is capable of long range escort (drop tanks), the Iberian Intermezzo taught the Germans that bombers need both armour and armament and the fact that the Me-110 never flew - thus are no twin engined predecessor, so to say - will there be a need for the Falke, or even be the notion, that a plane like the FW-187 is needed? Besides, I would think that a twin engined fighter like the Falke would be more expensive than the Me-109, something the ATL Luftwaffe would take into serious consideration - strapped for resources as they are/would be without Der Dicke...Quote:
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Yet again, thank you all for your comments and suggestions - they are highly appriciated! Best regards! - Bluenote.
__________________
Honeste vivere, alterum non ladere, suum cuique tribuere!
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