Nobunaga’s Ambition Realized: Dawn of a New Rising Sun
- Thread starter Ambassador Huntsman
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As you will see, English-Scottish succession diverges pretty soon, and while the Nassau-Orange line is mostly intact, the other stadtholderate lines are divergent from OTL. There are also certain differences in the Spanish or Portuguese lines, the two big ones being that Catherine of Braganza marries Philippe, the Duke of Orleans, instead of Charles II of England, and therefore England never gets Tangiers or Bombay from a dowry, and the other being Charles II of Spain marries Maria Antonia, the eldest daughter of the Holy Roman Emperor who sired Maximilian II Emanuel of Bavaria IOTL. The former because of England becoming Presbyterian and Parliament forbidding marriages with Catholics, the latter because the Franco-Dutch War happening later means that the pro-French John Joseph never takes over the regency and arranges OTL's marriage between Charles II and Marie Louise d"Orleans.
I don't see it as cheating in terms of incorporating aspects of OTL, if anything generating butterflies for the sake of generating butterflies can have its pitfalls.
I don't see it as cheating in terms of incorporating aspects of OTL, if anything generating butterflies for the sake of generating butterflies can have its pitfalls.
After consideration from myself on the matter, Dara doesn't beat Aurangzeb ITTL like IOTL.
This for Nobunaga and Mitsuhide. Hashiba Hideyoshi and Tokugawa Ieyasu are less remembered for obvious reasons and samurai that became prominent as Toyotomi vassals might be obscure figures in comparison while people like Aguro Yasuke, Mori Ranmaru/Naritoshi, and Nobunaga's many many sons are much better remembered. Sakuma Moritora meanwhile is seen and romanticized as one of Japan's most talented generals, rightfully so. It really depends person to person. This kinda could be its own thing tbh.
The one thing I will say is that in terms of rulers of Japan, Oda Nobutomo and Kanbe Tomoyoshi are thought of almost as highly as Nobunaga is.
Fair enough. It was just that every element reported in that last post was the same as OTL: Charles is heirless, Charles dies in 1685, James has two daughters, James' daughters marry the Prince of Orange and a Danish prince. There was no context to give an ATL flavor.
That need not be a substantive change. One could have figures with the same names and positions, but with "butterfly" tweaks to their personalities or their histories. For example, suppose Charles had two children who predeceased him just before his own death, in a slightly different year.
One could mention some of the ATL differences. Henrietta Anne marries differently (not Philippe), and her husband could be a factor. James could not remarry to a Catholic and thus doesn't remarry at all.
Or for a more substantive change, Charles' and James' younger brother Henry lives, and becomes regent for Mary's child after she and James are carried off by smallpox. (William is off campaigning.)
It could get to the same outcome, without looking like a copy-paste.
I suppose I'm nit-picking, but that bit felt off in such gorgeous company - so in a sense it is a compliment.
One thing for sure: the "Demon King Nobunaga" archetype will be somewhat downplayed compared to OTL, probably competing with the "Nobunaga the Japanese Peter the Great" narrative. And Akechi will not become the archetype for traitor in Japan like America's Benedict Arnold. Goro Akechi from "Persona 5" might need a change in surname.
Goro Sue? Its based off Sue Harukata, the only other famous Sengoku Era traitor I can think of, since his coup led to the downfall of the Ouchi Clan. (Also, from what I'm reading, ironically, his Childhood name was... Goro)
You know what, I'll take it! And Shinya ODA from the same game (the "Get Smoked" kid) could be given a more prominent role beyond being a Confidant on account of his illustrious family name.
Anime as we know it might not exist in TTL, remember that fact.
So, switching before we get off topic, thinking more about it, remember how Wagaku is arising as a response to try in finding a more “Japanese” cultural identity?
How would that affect Clans who claim descent from outside Japan, if at all? There were a few out there that claim descent from either Chinese or Korean lineages, notably the Chosokabe of Tosa Province (Who claim descent from the Qin Dynasty, which is entirely doubtful, but cool story nonetheless). And that’s not even mentioning the Aguro Clan from Yasuke (An African). Or if even it effects them at all
Also on a different topic, what’s the chances of a Japanese clan converting to Islam? Probably not on the main island, but maybe around Luson or in SEA, since they’re closer to Malaysia and Indonesia
How would that affect Clans who claim descent from outside Japan, if at all? There were a few out there that claim descent from either Chinese or Korean lineages, notably the Chosokabe of Tosa Province (Who claim descent from the Qin Dynasty, which is entirely doubtful, but cool story nonetheless). And that’s not even mentioning the Aguro Clan from Yasuke (An African). Or if even it effects them at all
Also on a different topic, what’s the chances of a Japanese clan converting to Islam? Probably not on the main island, but maybe around Luson or in SEA, since they’re closer to Malaysia and Indonesia
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it is indeed, no anime = death.
I do think Japanese animation would pop up in some form though, Japanese animation did evolve in conjunction to comics and cartoons in America in the 20th century, so its still possible.
It'd have very different conventions though.
With Britain being a second-rate power ITTL, it'll be funny to see it crop up there instead.
I can go back and list some more differences in the footnotes. The biggest one I haven't listed mostly because it may already be a logical conclusion, is that James II is NOT a Catholic or a Francophile because the Stuarts were never exiled to the continent. He is rather a "moderate Presbyterian" and continues to be suspicious of overbearing parliamentary authority. He does remarry, albeit he marries Johanna Magdalena of Saxe-Altenburg, a German Protestant. They have had three sons so far: James, now the Prince of Wales, Henry, the Duke of York, and Francis, the Duke of Gloucester (James' younger brother still dies from the smallpox epidemic ITTL).
I've never played them either so I can't really say.
Anime as we know it might not exist but anime (アニメ) is literally just Japanese shorthand for animation (アニメーション) and I'm pretty sure that if animation exists in any form that there may well be a Japanese version of animation either called anime or something else.
I don't think foreign descent would matter that much because the underlying thinking is that Japan has its own identity that should be better appreciated and recognized rather than viewing Japan as just a cultural offshoot of the Sinosphere, and it's not even like Chinese classics like Art of War are discarded anyway.
There are probably a few Muslim samurai by now in Luson province, but more isolated incidences rather than general patterns as Islam is pretty much the most alien faith in the Japanese cultural sphere.
There are probably a few Muslim samurai by now in Luson province, but more isolated incidences rather than general patterns as Islam is pretty much the most alien faith in the Japanese cultural sphere.
That could work. Just something to differentiate TTL from OTL.
Some of this was narrated, but not in a clear way.
I know I'm being incredibly presumptuous toward a Turtledove winner, but I think this would work noticeably better:
"The childless king had kept England neutral in return for French money to support the crown's political struggle against Parliament. [making explicit the connection between the internal English situation and Charles' neutrality] He was succeeded by his equally autocratic brother James. But where Charles was married to a Swedish princess [bringing an AH element into view], James' daughters were married to the Prince of Orange and Prince George of Denmark, tying him to the enemies of France and Sweden and reinforcing his Protestant sympathies. [another visible AH element] He therefore abandoned neutrality and offered to mediate an end of the Franco-Dutch War."
What? No, you wouldn't die in TTL (assuming you still miraculously survive the butterfly) because you wouldn't have known it even existed in the first place.