How would you have dealt with Germany post WW1?
- Thread starter Malone
- Start date
Treat Germany with respect and expect that they will always be a significant force on the European and World stage.
BlondieBC
Banned
Assuming WW1 ended the same way and 20/20 hindsight.
- Take away A-L to France.
- Much more limited reparations.
- No occupation of Rhineland.
- No losses of lands in east.
- Allow Austria and Sudetenland to join Germany post war.
- More modest reductions in Germany Army.
- Try to create large Poland as buffer state.
Deleted member 94680
Toss a coin between taking Alsace-Lorraine and their African colonies away or dividing it back into the Kingdoms, with Prussia losing territories to the other German states.
Either way, go with one. Crush them utterly or give them a slap on the wrists and keep them in the international community. Versailles was too much of a halfway house that bred resentment and left them strong enough to do something about it.
Either way, go with one. Crush them utterly or give them a slap on the wrists and keep them in the international community. Versailles was too much of a halfway house that bred resentment and left them strong enough to do something about it.
Let Germany keep the corridor and all of Upper Silesia, that would be my border changes.
Some reparations but keeping it in the lower end.
Establish a earlier Coal and Steel Union between France, Germany, Belgium, Austria, Czechoslovakia, Luxembourg and Hungary (also invite the Dutch if they want to).
Some reparations but keeping it in the lower end.
Establish a earlier Coal and Steel Union between France, Germany, Belgium, Austria, Czechoslovakia, Luxembourg and Hungary (also invite the Dutch if they want to).
As german unificationism has been going strong since at least ~1800 (and to butterfly those forces away you'll need to mess with the formation/decline/residue of the HRE, and that's a "bit of a mess"), the second option would require constant external enforcement far surpassing the scale of the Rhineland occupation - and if you lapse for a moment, you'll get 1871 Part II. So, barring any pre-war butterflies (which in turn would affect the war, and this discussion would not be had) the first option is really the only sensible one.
Edit: You forgot "observe the dipolmatic niceties which have been common in Europe for centuries, and do not try justify conditions by casting the loosers as criminals". If you write a victors' peace, say so. Don't dress it up as something it is not.
That is exactly what I would do... The problem is the possibility of Germany initiating a war with the west to recover E-L. Maybe you could try to press the new government to sign a friendship treaty with the west, as Gustav Stressman did?
Anchises
Banned
Honestly, if the Entente attempts balkanization the only winner will be the Soviets.
Even if Hitler doesn't rise, the likelyhood that the Soviets will come is high. If the Soviets are able to devour Germany and Eastern Europe, chances are they will reach the Atlantic long before the Americans can bring their full potential to the battlefield.
Germany, France and Britain together as partners could easily contain the Soviets.
BlondieBC
Banned
Well, I do allow modest reductions in the Germany Army. Maybe limit it to 50% of its 1913 size for 10 years, 75% for another 10 years. It can be a tough balancing act. Happy enough Germany not to try to break the treaty, but not strong enough that breaking the treaty is easy. Sort of like what Europe tried to do with France after the Napoleonic wars.
Also, Germany is fresh out of allies. Soviets will scare Germany more than Russia ever did. I guess we can see Hungary as an ally, maybe I have butterflied it to a greater Hungary.
Also, if the French and British don't screw over Italy, then things are easier. Maybe Italy gets some colonial concessions. Or maybe more of Adriatic Coastline.
Anchises
Banned
Even the militarists where fed up with A-L. Ludendorff planned to give up parts of it in a peace treaty.
A-L was a constant source of trouble in the Empire.
probably at the same time it would buy the allies time to get their shit together when it does happen, also see Yugoslavia
Anchises
Banned
Which one? Ludendorffs peace treaty wasn't really feasible he still wanted to control Belgium etc.
@BlondieBC plan would be very feasible for the Germans and maybe feasible for the Americans. There is no way that Britain or France would have accepted it.
BlondieBC
Banned
And that is the problem. France and the UK wanted a harsh treaty, but neither was willing to keep a million man army of occupation in Germany for decades. As you strip away things from my treaty, you make it more likely the Germans don't accept the treaty long term. Really a no win game by 1918. If Russia survives, then harsh terms can be imposed, but not after Russia collapses.
If your must, keep Versailles. But afterwards, lift trade restrictions, invite germany to the league of nations, engage in mutual disarmement or allow rearmement. Give back part of the merchant marine. Don't treat a whole nation as pariah. Make them fat and happy instead of lean, mean and hungry.
One point that occurred to me when thinking about this today, but which has not to my knowledge been raised on this thread, that allowing Austria to join Germany would have retarded the growth of the NSDAP somewhat.
Keep in mind that Austria has somewhat more than a tenth of the population of Germany. Now look at the results of the 1930 Austrian elections:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austrian_legislative_election,_1930
Though Hitler was an Austrian, historically the NSDAP cannibalized the secular and Protestant right wing vote in Germany. They had notably less success in the Catholic states. There was an Austrian Nazi party, that got 3% of the vote in the 1930 elections, with another far right party taking 6%. If Austria had been incorporated into Germany, it would have delivered a large number of votes to the Zentrum or its local equivalent and the SPD and depressed the Germany wide total or the NSDAP and DNVP slightly.
Keep in mind that Austria has somewhat more than a tenth of the population of Germany. Now look at the results of the 1930 Austrian elections:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austrian_legislative_election,_1930
Though Hitler was an Austrian, historically the NSDAP cannibalized the secular and Protestant right wing vote in Germany. They had notably less success in the Catholic states. There was an Austrian Nazi party, that got 3% of the vote in the 1930 elections, with another far right party taking 6%. If Austria had been incorporated into Germany, it would have delivered a large number of votes to the Zentrum or its local equivalent and the SPD and depressed the Germany wide total or the NSDAP and DNVP slightly.
Emperor Casey
Banned
With 20/20 hindsight and trying to be realistic to the time
-Referendum in Alsace-Lorraine and give the territory to Germany or France depending on how each county voted. Have Sweden or Norway observe if you want one
-Slight limitations on the German armed forces
-Abandonment of German foreign colonies
-Independent Poland with trade guarantees in Danzig
-Nothing preventing or encouraging Austria and other German territories from joining together
-Maintain independence of BL independent states but work to have them not be German puppets
-Referendum in Alsace-Lorraine and give the territory to Germany or France depending on how each county voted. Have Sweden or Norway observe if you want one
-Slight limitations on the German armed forces
-Abandonment of German foreign colonies
-Independent Poland with trade guarantees in Danzig
-Nothing preventing or encouraging Austria and other German territories from joining together
-Maintain independence of BL independent states but work to have them not be German puppets
The problem with this idea is that this is utopic. On this scenario Germany basically can leave the war even stronger than it was when it started, something that the entente wouldn't allow.