Carthago supervivenda est!

[Leo Caesius]

Perhaps the Huns manage to do better and after Attila's death Rome agrees to allow them to settle in Lusitania. The Hun language survives mixed heavily with latin, and the Huns transform themselves from land nomads to sea pioneers.

Im sorry Leo for hijacking your thread.

No sweat, I do it myself all the time. I'd be a hypocrite if I were to spite a convivial exchange of ideas in my own threads.

Is it possible that when the natives gain the idea for a written form for their language that they might create a alphabet that is written boustrophedon and is syllabary? It just would be nice for them to come up with something unique.

I'd like to see what the ancestors of the great Mesoamerican and Andean civilizations do with an alphabet. I'd like very much to come up with something unique, or at least different.

 

[Hierophant]

After your initial post about the impact of an alphabet on Ameridians I started looking stuff up on Wiki and came across the whole boustrophedon concept. It sounded like a neat idea and it just seemed like reading would be faster if we applied it to our own written language. It just makes sense to read a line and then drop to the line below and read to the otherside of the page again.

 

[Hierophant]

What does Carthago supervivenda est mean? I know its a play off of Carthago delende est, which means something like "Carthage must be destroyed".

 

[Leo Caesius]

What does Carthago supervivenda est mean? I know its a play off of Carthago delende est, which means something like "Carthage must be destroyed".

It's bad Latin. It should mean "Carthage ought to survive" - this is a gerundive, like Carthago delenda est, except that the latter is a passive periphrastic construction. Supervivere, being intransitive, doesn't take this construction. For that reason it would have been better Latin to say Carthagini supervivendum est. Alternatively, I could leave it the way it is, and it would mean "Carthage ought to be outlived," or something of the sort, but I'm pretty sure that I can't do that.

Actually, I'm quite surprised that nobody has pointed this out yet.

 

[Hierophant]

I havent been able to find anything on the net about the history of Ameridians in Brazil, except that the Guaianás indians lived around the area the Phoenicians landed. Of course there is a span of about a millenium, so I dont think they would be the same people the Phoenicians would be dealing with.

 

[carlton_bach]

Leo, would there be regular contact across the Atlantic? If so, how and why? The ships of Antiquity would certainly be up for the challenge, but the logistics of seafaring as the Med knew it would have to be more or less stood on their head. Do the Carthaginians figure out trade winds? If they do, will they realise that they are looking at a symmetrical phenomenon and start exploring other such currents, or will they just assume the Gods like that particular stretch of ocean?

I'm wondering what approach a Carthaginian captain finding himself on the Brazilian coast would take trying to get home. If he were Greek he'd sail along the coast of Okeanos in the certainty that this would bring him home. Would the Punics follow the example of Necho's captains and move up the coast? I doubt they'd go looking for favourable trade winds from the start.

And what would they be looking for in America? What can be found in the first millennium BC that is worth the risk and expense of a journey?

Fascinating stuff. I think I know how I'd continue it.

 

[Hierophant]

I bet that chocolate might be something the classical civs might like. And their always stuff like gold and jade to trade for.

 

[Leo Caesius]

I'm betting the mines at Minas Gerais are enough to bring the Carthaginians back. There's nothing like them in the coastal stretch of Africa that the Carthaginians control and eventually Britain and Spain will be lost to them.

I do imagine that they'll eventually figure out the trade winds phenomenon. the editors of the Periplus of Hanno the Navigator suggested that Hanno employed both the Canarian current and the north-east trade winds in his trip along the coast of Africa. As I've described the situation, they've been picked up by the Brazil Current and dumped in Brazil - this happened to a certain Jean Cousin of Dieppe, in 1488, who was allegedly dropped near the mouth of the Orinoco. Once deposited unceremoniously in Brazil, their natural instinct would lead them to hug the coast, I think; the South Connecting Current would pull them southwards, and eventually bring them in contact with the winds heading back west.

Will they discover the Equatorial Current and the Gulf Stream? I would imagine they would. The Carthaginians would continue exploring, I think; their maps were the envy of the ancient world (our own word, map, is probably derived from Phoenician *mappē (< CS *manpay) which means something like a cheesecloth, and came into the languages of Europe via Latin mappamundī). I don't imagine they'd be content with what they have, and eventually they'd venture north and south of the regions serviced by the South Atlantic trade winds - this time hugging the coast, of course.

The advantage of the Brazil Current is that it can easily be concealed from the Romans - it is far down the coast of Africa, in territory completely unknown to them, and their approach to it is blocked by the Carthaginians themselves. The Equatorial Current is less easily concealed.

 

[carlton_bach]

I bet that chocolate might be something the classical civs might like. And their always stuff like gold and jade to trade for.

And tobacco. But will it be obvious to the first arrivals? If the first sailors return home reporting "it's full of steaming jungles with huge snakes and little guys shooting arrows at you from cover, nothing ever stays dry, and the locals haven't even figured out farming", what are the chances of a second journey?

Were there civilisations near any likely landing points that could offer the Phoenicians something they wanted? The Spanish knew the value of sugfar plantations when they came, so as far as they were concerned the Carivbean was valuable in its own right. Also, they could follow the gold trail. What could catch a Carthaginian's attention? Would the locals have gold? Parrot feathers? Pelts? I don't know enough about Precolumbian Brazil.

 

[carlton_bach]

I'm betting the mines at Minas Gerais are enough to bring the Carthaginians back. There's nothing like them in the coastal stretch of Africa that the Carthaginians control and eventually Britain and Spain will be lost to them.

Were they mined at the time? Rome's frontiers for centuries ran just west and south of two of Europe's largest silver deposits, but they didn't know that (nor did anyone else till many centuries later).

 

[Leo Caesius]

What could catch a Carthaginian's attention? Would the locals have gold? Parrot feathers? Pelts? I don't know enough about Precolumbian Brazil.

Brazil takes its name, apparently, from brazilwood, which was its first cash crop and was also highly prized in Europe at the time. Brazilwood yields a red dye (which would attract the Carthaginians for obvious reasons) and takes a high shine. Occupying a country with few trees, and competing with the Greeks and the Romans for the resources of Europe, I'd imagine that the Carthaginians might well take advantage of the brazilwood forests.

 

[Leo Caesius]

Were they mined at the time? Rome's frontiers for centuries ran just west and south of two of Europe's largest silver deposits, but they didn't know that (nor did anyone else till many centuries later).

I don't believe that the indigenous Tupi-Guarani people mined them, but they run right along the coast around the spot where the Phoenicians are being deposited, and are the highest mountains in the country. If they find themselves colonizing the Brazilian coast in this spot, I can't imagine that it would be long before they explore the mountains looming above them.

Other products that might bring the Carthaginians back are the yucca / cassava plant and the fermented beverage made from it, caium.

 

[Historico]

Horses, Elephants and Iron...Oh my

Now Leo, After Carthage takes over the Brazil Project...Is it possible that they might bring Elephants and Horses to Navigate Brazil? Would the keep the secret of Iron Smelting to themselves or introduce it to the natives? How Quickly would it take an small Horse/Elephant population to spread to MesoAmerica and North America to be used as beasts of Burden? And what about after the fall of Carthage, Have other Punic Colonies approach the Numidian Kings for more Exploratory missions? Also, The Phoenicians arrive wright after the fall of the Olmecs, before the Maya, and right on time for the Nazca and the Hopewell Indian Tribes.

Leo, Are you in the stages of making another Installment to this Timeline or a Map even?

 

[G.Bone]

Erm- I don't really think elephants COULD live in Brazil, much less have many many babies to become the beast of burden. Horses only became beasts of burden because the Spaniards introduced them to the Great Plains, and thus the stereotypical image of a Plains "Indian" came about. (That was in the Great Plains and certainly not in jungle.)

 

[Leo Caesius]

Is it possible that they might bring Elephants and Horses to Navigate Brazil? Would the keep the secret of Iron Smelting to themselves or introduce it to the natives? How Quickly would it take an small Horse/Elephant population to spread to MesoAmerica and North America to be used as beasts of Burden? And what about after the fall of Carthage, Have other Punic Colonies approach the Numidian Kings for more Exploratory missions? Also, The Phoenicians arrive wright after the fall of the Olmecs, before the Maya, and right on time for the Nazca and the Hopewell Indian Tribes.

I'm not sure how such animals would weather the trip. You see, the Carthaginians took these trips in extremely long stages. They took three years to circumnavigate Africa alone - settling down along the way and growing crops for the following leg. A prodigious eater like the elephant might prove to be a real... white elephant. As for horses, I'm fairly certain that the Carthaginians could do without - theirs was a naval empire, and the ships were their horses. The Celtiberians, on the other hand, might introduce them.

Perhaps they could tame the wild Capybera.

The Carthaginians mixed with the local populations wherever they went, so I see no reason why we wouldn't see Guaranophoenicians before too long. In fact, these mestizos would probably comprise the bulk of the colonial population and would probably avail themselves of any perks the Carthaginians might bring (including ironworking, glass, the potters' wheel, and the Punic script). Any Carthaginian colonies in the New World are going to be very isolated, partly because of the measures taken by the Carthaginians to keep them secret, and partly because of the distances involved. They're miles and miles away from anything answering to the description of a civilization in the New World, anyway.

I have plans for the Carthaginians after the Romans crush them. Perhaps the Numidians as well.

A gentleman by the name of Dr. Alfredo Mederos of the Universidad Complutense in Madrid is giving a lecture at my university on the Carthaginians on the topic "Beyond Sun's Gates: Phoenicians in the Atlantic," next Thursday, and so I think I'll drop in for a look. I owe my advisor another chapter of my dissertation, so I was planning on going back anyway. Perhaps I'll write an update after I've heard what Dr. Mederos has to say.

 

[Hierophant]

Actually, elephants in India and south-east asia live primarily in jungles and heavy forests. There is a possiblility that the Carthaginians would have acces to Indian elephants since I believe they were introduced by the Persians into the west and where used by Alexander and Co. Indian elephants are the easiest to tame while african are the hardest. The Numidians used the North African forest elephant, which are distantly related to african elephants. They too are smaller than their african brethren, and probably easier to tame.

It is likely that if elephants are brought to the new world they will be domesticated, as previosly most elephants were tamed after being captured from the wild. A domesticated elephant would most likely be easier to command and use.

I like the idea of elephants in the new world, especially if they were a small variety. I think it would be different if horses did not take hold in the new world and instead the domesticated elephant was the main beast of burden (the llama would eventually be used as well). I also imagine if this were to happen Elephants would be selectively bred, something that has never really happened in are TL, and you would get several "breeds", ie war elephants, "mule" elephant, and maybe one bred for speed.

 

[Hendryk]

On the topic of old-world animals imported to the Brazilian colonies of Carthage: did the Carthaginians use camels, and if so would they see any use for them across the Atlantic? I'm guessing camels wouldn't be adapted to the forest environment of coastal southern Brazil, but in the hinterland and such places as OTL Nordeste they might come in handy.

 

[Max Sinister]

I thought they used horses (well, Hannibal did). Don't know about Africa.

WI they landed in South Brasil / North Argentina? The climate there is less tropical, and esp. Argentina is very fertile. (Of course, they weren't really a people of farmers.)

 

[Faeelin]

On the topic of old-world animals imported to the Brazilian colonies of Carthage: did the Carthaginians use camels, and if so would they see any use for them across the Atlantic? I'm guessing camels wouldn't be adapted to the forest environment of coastal southern Brazil, but in the hinterland and such places as OTL Nordeste they might come in handy.

Sadly, no camals. They were introduced to Egypt during the Hellenistic era.

 

[carlton_bach]

Sadly, no camals. They were introduced to Egypt during the Hellenistic era.

But well familiar to the Assyrians. They weren't used extensively, but if the Phoenicians really felt the need...

Nah, I think they'll just bring donkeys. Camels are scary critters.