usertron2020
Donor
Internal navy politics will protect Halsey. But like IOTL, naval historians will not be kind to him. ITTL, even more so. Probably more like MacArthur, and less like Patton.
December 28th, 1941: The Day of Infamy
- Thread starter Gridley
- Start date
The Last Command
At dawn on the 20th the IJN Battle Force had three carriers, two seaplane carriers, seven battleships, one battlecruiser, eight heavy cruisers, one torpedo cruiser, nine light cruisers, and seventeen destroyers. Yamamoto had detached CL Kiso and three destroyers to screen his aviation ships. This group was attacked by most of the aircraft launched by TG51.3; well over half the US aircraft launched that morning. By noon six of the nine ships were sunk and the rest sinking.
Aircraft from TG51.2 spread their attacks across the rest of the IJN force. They sank cruisers Myoko, Furutaka, Naka, and Yubari along with five destroyers and damaged many other ships.
Admiral Sherman, commanding the battered TG51.1, kept the aircraft lifting from his remaining carriers under much tighter control. He wanted to kill a battleship, and Commander Dixon of the USS Lexington, his senior pilot, was determined to oblige him. Sixty-eight strike aircraft, just over half of them TBF Avengers, converged on Fuso and scored five bomb and an incredible eight torpedo hits. Fuso capsized half an hour later.
By noon the sky was empty of Japanese aircraft. The US fleet’s Hellcats began strafing the dwindling ranks of the Japanese fleet. Their Browning .50cal machineguns couldn’t sink ships, but they could rip up exposed equipment on deck and kill unprotected crewmen. A TBF from CVE Sangamon was the last aircraft to attack before the battle lines engaged, hitting Shinano with a bomb that jammed her “B” turret pointed forward.
TF55, meanwhile, had split in two, Spruance leading his six fast battleships, four light cruisers, and 27 destroyers forward. At 1130 they linked up with TG51.4 – the two Iowa-class battleships and their screen – along with half a dozen cruisers detached from the carrier groups, and steered towards the Japanese. In all Spruance had eight fast battleships, four brand-new heavy cruisers, eight light cruisers, and three dozen destroyers, none of them damaged.
Yamamoto still had six battleships, one battlecruiser, thirteen cruisers and nine destroyers, almost all of them damaged to some extent. His battle line actually had a greater displacement than the US battleships and he had more heavy cruisers, but Yamamoto must have been well aware he was heavily outmatched. His battle-line formed north-to-south, the three massive Yamato-class BBs in the lead and Kirishima in the rear with the old Nagato, Ise, and Hyuga in between, and sent his cruisers and destroyers forward in two groups north and south of his line to engage the enemy now visible on the horizon.
The USN battleships were in four columns of two sailing west; North Carolina leading Washington furthest to the south, then Alabama leading Massachusetts, South Dakota leading Indiana, and finally New Jersey leading Iowa at the northern end. The battlewagons were flanked by cruisers and destroyers to the north and south, just like the Japanese. Spruance sent his own screen forward to engage the Japanese while his battleships closed the distance, scouting planes already circling overhead to report.
OrBat, Final Phase:
Battle Force (Yamamoto)
BB Yamato, Musashi, Shinano, Nagato, Ise, Hyuga
BC Kirishima
CA Mogami, Kumano, Haguro, Aoba, Kinugasa, Kako
CLTT Oi
CL Agano, Jintsu, Yahagi, Oyodo, Yura, Noshiro
9 DD
TF55.1/TF51.4, Fast Battle Force (Spruance)
BB Iowa, New Jersey, South Dakota, Indiana, Massachusetts, Alabama, North Carolina, Washington
CA Baltimore, Boston, Houston CA70, Quincy
CL Columbia, Mobile, Wichita CL81, Miami, Philadelphia, Phoenix, St. Louis, Helena
36 DD
At 1241 Yamamoto, inspired by history on the eve of what he seems to have realized would be his last battle, ordered a message sent, explicitly via flag signal, to the rest of his force:
The Emperor expects that every man will do his duty.
At dawn on the 20th the IJN Battle Force had three carriers, two seaplane carriers, seven battleships, one battlecruiser, eight heavy cruisers, one torpedo cruiser, nine light cruisers, and seventeen destroyers. Yamamoto had detached CL Kiso and three destroyers to screen his aviation ships. This group was attacked by most of the aircraft launched by TG51.3; well over half the US aircraft launched that morning. By noon six of the nine ships were sunk and the rest sinking.
Aircraft from TG51.2 spread their attacks across the rest of the IJN force. They sank cruisers Myoko, Furutaka, Naka, and Yubari along with five destroyers and damaged many other ships.
Admiral Sherman, commanding the battered TG51.1, kept the aircraft lifting from his remaining carriers under much tighter control. He wanted to kill a battleship, and Commander Dixon of the USS Lexington, his senior pilot, was determined to oblige him. Sixty-eight strike aircraft, just over half of them TBF Avengers, converged on Fuso and scored five bomb and an incredible eight torpedo hits. Fuso capsized half an hour later.
By noon the sky was empty of Japanese aircraft. The US fleet’s Hellcats began strafing the dwindling ranks of the Japanese fleet. Their Browning .50cal machineguns couldn’t sink ships, but they could rip up exposed equipment on deck and kill unprotected crewmen. A TBF from CVE Sangamon was the last aircraft to attack before the battle lines engaged, hitting Shinano with a bomb that jammed her “B” turret pointed forward.
TF55, meanwhile, had split in two, Spruance leading his six fast battleships, four light cruisers, and 27 destroyers forward. At 1130 they linked up with TG51.4 – the two Iowa-class battleships and their screen – along with half a dozen cruisers detached from the carrier groups, and steered towards the Japanese. In all Spruance had eight fast battleships, four brand-new heavy cruisers, eight light cruisers, and three dozen destroyers, none of them damaged.
Yamamoto still had six battleships, one battlecruiser, thirteen cruisers and nine destroyers, almost all of them damaged to some extent. His battle line actually had a greater displacement than the US battleships and he had more heavy cruisers, but Yamamoto must have been well aware he was heavily outmatched. His battle-line formed north-to-south, the three massive Yamato-class BBs in the lead and Kirishima in the rear with the old Nagato, Ise, and Hyuga in between, and sent his cruisers and destroyers forward in two groups north and south of his line to engage the enemy now visible on the horizon.
The USN battleships were in four columns of two sailing west; North Carolina leading Washington furthest to the south, then Alabama leading Massachusetts, South Dakota leading Indiana, and finally New Jersey leading Iowa at the northern end. The battlewagons were flanked by cruisers and destroyers to the north and south, just like the Japanese. Spruance sent his own screen forward to engage the Japanese while his battleships closed the distance, scouting planes already circling overhead to report.
OrBat, Final Phase:
Battle Force (Yamamoto)
BB Yamato, Musashi, Shinano, Nagato, Ise, Hyuga
BC Kirishima
CA Mogami, Kumano, Haguro, Aoba, Kinugasa, Kako
CLTT Oi
CL Agano, Jintsu, Yahagi, Oyodo, Yura, Noshiro
9 DD
TF55.1/TF51.4, Fast Battle Force (Spruance)
BB Iowa, New Jersey, South Dakota, Indiana, Massachusetts, Alabama, North Carolina, Washington
CA Baltimore, Boston, Houston CA70, Quincy
CL Columbia, Mobile, Wichita CL81, Miami, Philadelphia, Phoenix, St. Louis, Helena
36 DD
At 1241 Yamamoto, inspired by history on the eve of what he seems to have realized would be his last battle, ordered a message sent, explicitly via flag signal, to the rest of his force:
The Emperor expects that every man will do his duty.
So, the Shinano was never converted into a mega carrier... This battle is going to be epic.
Geon
Donor
Halsey's Fate
I agree Halsey is in big trouble now and a large casualty list won't sit well back in Washington, however they can't court-martial a war hero but they could "kick him upstairs" and have him man a desk back in Washington for the duration of the war, after decorating him of course.
Of course, I don't know what Gridley has in mind but ideally it would be better if Halsey were to die in the course of the battle. Consider, if he dies a war hero, he can be decorated without all of the public relations disaster mess it would create to either court-martial him or tie him to a desk for the duration of the war.
Geon
Well, this seems like a recipe for massive casualties on both sides. Which will be perfectly fine with the US of course.
Halsey... well, guess it's the firing squad and posthumous medal for him.
I agree Halsey is in big trouble now and a large casualty list won't sit well back in Washington, however they can't court-martial a war hero but they could "kick him upstairs" and have him man a desk back in Washington for the duration of the war, after decorating him of course.
Of course, I don't know what Gridley has in mind but ideally it would be better if Halsey were to die in the course of the battle. Consider, if he dies a war hero, he can be decorated without all of the public relations disaster mess it would create to either court-martial him or tie him to a desk for the duration of the war.
Geon
Yup. Given the increased involvement of battleships ITTL and the lack of a Midway-esque disaster wrecking the carrier fleet (well, until now) it seemed reasonable that she'd be completed as a BB. I extrapolated her completion dates from her keel laying and the build times for her sisters.
To an extent, yes. Of course as the range and payload of carrier aircraft increase, the importance of the battleship will decrease.
Just FYI, Halsey is aboard a carrier, so he isn't going to be KIA. If, hypothetically, the IJN battleline trashed the US battleline with minimal losses they still aren't fast enough to catch carriers that don't want to be caught.
Sorry
This TL has been a mix of the good and the questionable. In the latter category I would put having the US air strike against the IJN battle line concentrating on Fuso. WTF? They would much more likely concentrate on one of the Leviathans just like they did at Sibuyan Sea. I would see something like 7 torpedo and 4 bomb hits on Musashi, with a bomb and a torpedo hit on another BB.
However you are unfortunately obsessed with a Purist daylight gun battle, which might conceivably happen in 1942 but then again we don't get the Yamato vs Iowa match you so crave without at least one side already being seriously damaged by airpower (and probably subs as well).
I also doubt BB Shinano could be combat ready by this date. Perhaps someone like Calbear will opine on that.
This TL has been a mix of the good and the questionable. In the latter category I would put having the US air strike against the IJN battle line concentrating on Fuso. WTF? They would much more likely concentrate on one of the Leviathans just like they did at Sibuyan Sea. I would see something like 7 torpedo and 4 bomb hits on Musashi, with a bomb and a torpedo hit on another BB.
However you are unfortunately obsessed with a Purist daylight gun battle, which might conceivably happen in 1942 but then again we don't get the Yamato vs Iowa match you so crave without at least one side already being seriously damaged by airpower (and probably subs as well).
I also doubt BB Shinano could be combat ready by this date. Perhaps someone like Calbear will opine on that.
Sir Chaos
Banned
Maybe he dies because someone sticks a needle into his inflated ego, bursting him like a balloon?
Or, still unlikely but at least physically possible, the last surviving IJN floatplane kamikazes into the bridge of the carrier he is on in a final act of defiance?
Geon
Donor
Halsey and Europe
For the record let me say that I consider "Bull" Halsey one of the best admirals we had in World War II. Granted he made several errors, notably the Leyte Gulf and the typhoon incident, but by and large he was an aggressive and skilled admiral. I just notice his errors are more evident in this timeline.
One question for anyone on this thread knowledgable in the subject. It's clear that ships were taken from the Atlantic Theater given the heavy losses suffered by our Pacific Fleet here. Do any of you think this could have an influence on D-Day given that we don't have as many ships there?
Geon
Maybe he dies because someone sticks a needle into his inflated ego, bursting him like a balloon?
Or, still unlikely but at least physically possible, the last surviving IJN floatplane kamikazes into the bridge of the carrier he is on in a final act of defiance?
For the record let me say that I consider "Bull" Halsey one of the best admirals we had in World War II. Granted he made several errors, notably the Leyte Gulf and the typhoon incident, but by and large he was an aggressive and skilled admiral. I just notice his errors are more evident in this timeline.
One question for anyone on this thread knowledgable in the subject. It's clear that ships were taken from the Atlantic Theater given the heavy losses suffered by our Pacific Fleet here. Do any of you think this could have an influence on D-Day given that we don't have as many ships there?
Geon
Bearcat
Banned
Aggressive without a doubt. Skilled? Meh. He wasn't as bad as Theobald or a few others, but he was hardly brilliant. King probably was the best... and of course the biggest asshole. Towers might have shone if he had gotten the chance (see previous asshole). Spruance was methodical, but quite accomplished.
The US commitment of major warships was actually fairly small. A few older battleships, a few cruisers, a bunch of DDs. Of course there were thousands of landing ships and craft, but there's no need to divert any of those to the Pacific ITTL.
This isn't to say there's no impact, just that the impact is quite small compared to the overall size of the operation.
Looked for the heck of it, and there's a list here that looks right:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Allied_warships_in_the_Normandy_landings
Three old battleships, three heavy cruisers, 39 DD and DE. There are three BB's available in the ATO ITTL, including two of the three historical ships.
I'll briefly mention the TTL Normandy invasion in the final update.
The Death of a Navy
At 1255 Yamato opened fire at 38,000 yards, aiming for USS New Jersey (visible only from mast to mast by the Japanese). By 1300 the other six ships of the IJN line had followed suit, aiming for the USN column leaders. The first hit was scored on USS Alabama at 1258, but the IJNs gunnery was erratic due to the range and hits were few. At 1306 the USN line turned to open their broadsides, forming a single line of eight ships angling slightly towards the Japanese.
The lighter ships, meanwhile, had their own fight. Here the US was the first to open fire, the initial salvo from the USS Boston actually straddling Kumano at 1252. At 1311 the US screen ceased fire, due mainly to lack of targets – while a few of the IJN cruisers and destroyers still lived, smoke from their burning consorts completely obscured them. The Japanese had simply been smothered under high-rate, devastatingly well directed fire. USS Quincy, USS Columbia, USS Philadelphia, and USS St. Louis had been seriously damaged and six destroyers had been sunk, but the Japanese had lost four heavy cruisers, five light cruisers, and seven destroyers sunk and most of the rest crippled. USS Quincy would eventually sink while being towed back to Pearl Harbor.
While the lighter ships hammered at each other, the battle lines ponderously closed.
At 1308 USS South Dakota veered out of line, both her bridge and rudder destroyed.
At 1309 Hyuga lost all power.
At 1311 a shell from Iowa slipped though a pair of armor plates deformed by previous hits and found Musashi’s aft 18” magazine and half the ship vanished in a tremendous explosion.
At 1312 Kirishima fired her last shot; she had been pounded into floating scrap by USS North Carolina and USS Washington.
At 1313 USS Alabama, fires raging out of control, flooded her forward magazines and turned to withdraw from the line.
At 1314 Ise ceased fire as her last turret was knocked out by USS Massachusetts.
At 1315 a 5” magazine on Nagato exploded, followed seconds later by another, and her damage control center ordered all magazines flooded in a panic. Her main battery fired its last rounds and then went silent. Only Yamato and Shinano were still firing at the US, while six US battleships returned fire.
At 1317 Kirishima broke in half, her structure fatally weakened by fires, explosions, and flooding.
At 1318 a shell from USS New Jersey sprayed steel splinters across Yamato’ flag bridge, killing Admiral Yamamoto instantly.
At 1320 Yamato and Shinano turned away, their rear turrets firing parting shots.
At 1322 Spruance ordered the US battleline to turn to pursue. As they did, USS Indiana lost helm control and rammed USS North Carolina, seriously damaging both ships.
As the Japanese fled USS Gridley and USS Maury, closing from the north, fired sixteen torpedoes at the fleeing Japanese superbattleships, turned hard to open their other beam and fired sixteen more. The Japanese ships, their upper works shredded and still under fire from four US battleships, did not notice the torpedoes until the first hit. Eight fish hit Yamato, and seven hit Shinano, all on their starboard sides near the waterline. The two ships began listing almost immediately and soon capsized. Ise and Nagato were pounded under the waves by the US battleline, while Hyuga was finished off by torpedoes from USS Walker.
Throughout the afternoon, fleeing destroyers and cruisers were hunted down by follow-up strikes from the US carriers.
By sunset on the 20th, the Imperial Japanese Navy had been destroyed. Sixty-three warships had sailed to battle. Only five limped back to Truk – the battered survivors of the Carrier Force.
At 1255 Yamato opened fire at 38,000 yards, aiming for USS New Jersey (visible only from mast to mast by the Japanese). By 1300 the other six ships of the IJN line had followed suit, aiming for the USN column leaders. The first hit was scored on USS Alabama at 1258, but the IJNs gunnery was erratic due to the range and hits were few. At 1306 the USN line turned to open their broadsides, forming a single line of eight ships angling slightly towards the Japanese.
The lighter ships, meanwhile, had their own fight. Here the US was the first to open fire, the initial salvo from the USS Boston actually straddling Kumano at 1252. At 1311 the US screen ceased fire, due mainly to lack of targets – while a few of the IJN cruisers and destroyers still lived, smoke from their burning consorts completely obscured them. The Japanese had simply been smothered under high-rate, devastatingly well directed fire. USS Quincy, USS Columbia, USS Philadelphia, and USS St. Louis had been seriously damaged and six destroyers had been sunk, but the Japanese had lost four heavy cruisers, five light cruisers, and seven destroyers sunk and most of the rest crippled. USS Quincy would eventually sink while being towed back to Pearl Harbor.
While the lighter ships hammered at each other, the battle lines ponderously closed.
At 1308 USS South Dakota veered out of line, both her bridge and rudder destroyed.
At 1309 Hyuga lost all power.
At 1311 a shell from Iowa slipped though a pair of armor plates deformed by previous hits and found Musashi’s aft 18” magazine and half the ship vanished in a tremendous explosion.
At 1312 Kirishima fired her last shot; she had been pounded into floating scrap by USS North Carolina and USS Washington.
At 1313 USS Alabama, fires raging out of control, flooded her forward magazines and turned to withdraw from the line.
At 1314 Ise ceased fire as her last turret was knocked out by USS Massachusetts.
At 1315 a 5” magazine on Nagato exploded, followed seconds later by another, and her damage control center ordered all magazines flooded in a panic. Her main battery fired its last rounds and then went silent. Only Yamato and Shinano were still firing at the US, while six US battleships returned fire.
At 1317 Kirishima broke in half, her structure fatally weakened by fires, explosions, and flooding.
At 1318 a shell from USS New Jersey sprayed steel splinters across Yamato’ flag bridge, killing Admiral Yamamoto instantly.
At 1320 Yamato and Shinano turned away, their rear turrets firing parting shots.
At 1322 Spruance ordered the US battleline to turn to pursue. As they did, USS Indiana lost helm control and rammed USS North Carolina, seriously damaging both ships.
As the Japanese fled USS Gridley and USS Maury, closing from the north, fired sixteen torpedoes at the fleeing Japanese superbattleships, turned hard to open their other beam and fired sixteen more. The Japanese ships, their upper works shredded and still under fire from four US battleships, did not notice the torpedoes until the first hit. Eight fish hit Yamato, and seven hit Shinano, all on their starboard sides near the waterline. The two ships began listing almost immediately and soon capsized. Ise and Nagato were pounded under the waves by the US battleline, while Hyuga was finished off by torpedoes from USS Walker.
Throughout the afternoon, fleeing destroyers and cruisers were hunted down by follow-up strikes from the US carriers.
By sunset on the 20th, the Imperial Japanese Navy had been destroyed. Sixty-three warships had sailed to battle. Only five limped back to Truk – the battered survivors of the Carrier Force.
Some CVEs with well under their design load of aircraft, a crippled pilot training program, a bunch of DDs and smaller escorts, a few cruisers (mostly slow, elderly, or both), and some submarines. They have a worthy task force worth of ships in various stages of construction, but manning and equipping them would be difficult even in peacetime.
As a naval power, they're done.
The IJN did have radar, though at this point they had search radar only, not fire control radar. The radar disparity is only one of half a dozen factors tilted against them in this situation.
Sir Chaos
Banned
Two destroyers have that many torpedoes?
Also, I´m pretty sure destroyer torpedo batteries were mounted on the centerline, to be fired to either side; only cruisers had separate sets of tubes on either side.
15 torpedoes out of 32 sounds a bit much as well; make that 6 or 8 DDs that had outflanked the Japanese screen in order to attack the battle line with torpedoes, only arriving after the main battle was mostly over. The US certainly has enough DDs in their screen that they Japanese cannot keep them all away.