I think the real wild card is going to be the post-war scene. I mean you have a alliance of dictators in the Axis, a almost guaranted alliance of democracies in Britian and the US, and then of course the communist. Is a three way cold war comming up? or is this simply going to devole into the third world war.
Italia Eterna
- Thread starter Mr.Bluenote
- Start date
Alikchi said:One question. "Kapitänleutnant Otto von Bülow aboard U-404 sinks the British carrier HMS Biter. All detonate prematurely and HMS Biter escapes without damage." I'm confused.
Yeees, I know! It's embarassing! I have taken several smaller OTL events and edited them to Italia Etrena. In OTl the torpedo detonates prematurlely, but I changed that... Ehem, and forgot to edit it out...
Regarding the Jews. I would suspect some 60-70%.
As long as the fighting is on Italian turf, and its primarily defensive, the Germans will have a very hard time, yes. However when the Allies and Axis troops goes on the offensive... Only thing more dangerous than an attacking German soldier, is one defending himself!
Yeah, that's one of the more difficult ones. But I think that the Axis countries will slide towards democracy... Or perhaps some kind of Cold War stand-off? The USSR will probably be the big looser in this context!LDoc said:
Best regards!
- Bluenote.
LDoc said:
Haha, thanks LDoc!
I'll try to wrap things up and get 1944 posted around sunday! Have been somewhat preoccupied lately!
So, any other comments or what have we out there?
Best regards!
- Mr.Bluenote.
Very good TL so far. As to be expected from me, a few questions on why the British are doing so badly though. Please bear in mind that I've only read up to the revised 1942 so far:
1) Why did you have both Hood and PoW sunk by the Bismark?
2) Where do the Germans get their torpedo planes to attack the RN during the abortive Sealion? And why is it that the only thing saving the UK was a storm, despite the fact that just about everyone who has read about Sealion regards it as a blueprint for failure in itself?
3) Monty proved himself capable of handling methodical defence against Rommel at alam-Haifa (sp?), why not in the Far East? Specifically, on what basis doyou have the British, and especially the Indian troops panicking, when they are moving towards the front as re-inforcements? You seem determined for Operation Matador to fail, despite most agreeing that
a) It was a good plan which would have very high probability of stopping the Japanese cold
b) The only reason it wasn't implemented was Churchill's pressure for action in the med,which cannot exist in this TL.
4) Wouldn't the US step in militarily as soon as Japan launched its war of conquest?
When I've got a bit more time I'll go over the TL in a bit more detail- it makes for a very good read so far, my only problems with it is that things seem a bit too easy for the Italians so far- when do they start suffering from the victory disease?
Paulo the Limey,
defending British Interests in this TimeLine
1) Why did you have both Hood and PoW sunk by the Bismark?
2) Where do the Germans get their torpedo planes to attack the RN during the abortive Sealion? And why is it that the only thing saving the UK was a storm, despite the fact that just about everyone who has read about Sealion regards it as a blueprint for failure in itself?
3) Monty proved himself capable of handling methodical defence against Rommel at alam-Haifa (sp?), why not in the Far East? Specifically, on what basis doyou have the British, and especially the Indian troops panicking, when they are moving towards the front as re-inforcements? You seem determined for Operation Matador to fail, despite most agreeing that
a) It was a good plan which would have very high probability of stopping the Japanese cold
b) The only reason it wasn't implemented was Churchill's pressure for action in the med,which cannot exist in this TL.
4) Wouldn't the US step in militarily as soon as Japan launched its war of conquest?
When I've got a bit more time I'll go over the TL in a bit more detail- it makes for a very good read so far, my only problems with it is that things seem a bit too easy for the Italians so far- when do they start suffering from the victory disease?
Paulo the Limey,
defending British Interests in this TimeLine
Thanks! The Brits did somewhat poorly OTL, I'd say, but you points are taken and duely noted! Reread the IE TL when I begun on 1944 in earnest, and I think you'r right, Paulo! I'll correct a few things here and there. Especially the horrendous gramma and spelling!Paulo the Limey said:
Being an incorrectable anglophile I try to correct the slights on Britain with my MoS/Brits in Space TL!
Hmm, the Germans didn't run as OTL, when Hood blew up, instead they attacked the PoW. I read a few things about the encounter and it seems that the Prince of Wales wasn't really ready for action, being a new ship and all, so I think it's possible. I didn't write it, but I'm pretty certain both Eugen and Bissy were damaged when they returned to habour (why else return at all, eh?Paulo the Limey said:
). Oh, Goering dies in a car crash early on, so Wever and Kesselring are in charge of the Luftwaffe. As they are not the political empire builders Goering was, the Kriegsmarine get an air arm, hence naval and torpedo bombers...Paulo the Limey said:
Sealion did fail... Nah, I know what you mean, Paulo!
Well, RAF was held at bay and the Luftwaffe/Kriegsmarine felt confident, they could control the channel for the duration af the invasion, so off Sealion went... had the Germans landed in Britain, they would most likely have been cut off by the RN and beaten, yes, but they never got that far in IE.Uh, let's see, I've think Redbeard and I discussed this a lot back then.Paulo the Limey said:
Well, first of all, I think Monty was slow and completely WWI-minded. This is jungle territoty, it took the Allies a looong time to get used to fighting in the jungle - ordinary western tactics and doctrines are not suited for fighting mobile columns ala the Japanese in such an environment. The Commonwealth forces often panicked when flanked by the Japanese... Reinforcements move forward using roads, Japanese forces moves around them using the jungle, hence panic among the advancing troops...
Haha, yes, I didn't really believe in Matador. Two things, it relied on speed and that the US didn't look unfavorably on the Allies for attacking a nuetral country (Siam/Thailand). Speed with Monty? No way, no how (or not as I see him
) and we have the British being very worried about offending the US, because they are somewhat hard pressed. Besides, AFAIK the Japanese used nummerous amphibious landings, so wether or not the Kra Istmus would have blocked the Japanese attack completely is an open question!Hmm, don't know. My understanding of US politics at the time might be off, but I can't see the US getting involved in the war without Pearl Habour and/or the German declaration of war. Or an attack on, say, Australian as mentioned.Paulo the Limey said:
Thanks again, Paulo! Yeah, you'r right, but retrospective grants you great powers when writing an ATL!Paulo the Limey said:
The Germans are giving the Italians a bit of a thrashing in 1943, not to worry. And all things considered, the Italians are not extending themselves that much; Tunis, Savoy, Corsica and Djibouti. In OTL they went for Egypt and the Suez aganist the Brits... Best regards!
- Mr.Bluenote.
1944 - first draft!
1944
It is a curious thing that although every individual soldier returning from the Eastern Front considers himself personally superior to the Bolshevik soldier, we are still retreating and retreating!
- Joesph Goebbels.
The Italian armed forces will defend themselves from attacks coming from any other direction.
- Pietro Badoglio.
In Rome the mood is bleak as the Germans steadily fight their way south. The sense of loss is only substanciated as Mussolini dies in March. The young Count Ciano has been acting Duce since Mussolini’s stroke in late ´43 and has done a rather good job. He is, however, in many Italians eyes seen as a bit of a British lackey. Backed by the everpopular Balbo, Bottai and Grandi Ciano nonetheless tries to gain the fascist Grand Council nomination as Duce. The divisions within the National Fascist Party (PNF) already began to manifest when Mussolini suffered a stroke and came into the open with full force when he finally died. Ciano is as noted backed by the Leonardi, but strongly opposed by the Old Guards among Acille Staracce and Farinacci’s supporters, who called themselves Praetorians, and defined themselves as loyalists (opposed to the British dogs among the the Leonardi). Staracce and Farinacci don’t agree on much else than their opposition to the Leonardi. The two groups fought a brief political battle for the power in the Fascist Grand Council, but in the end the popular Leonardi won (it did help that Farinacci apparently disappeared).
After some major setbacks the war takes a definite turn for the better as the German advance in Northern Italia is finally stopped, and the Spanish, British, Free French and Polish forces cross fron Spain into France. In the east Italian Marines and Bersaglieri lands on the Croatian coast, while Canadians lands east of Venice. The German commander, General Schörner, in the area is close to panic, but is unanble to withstand the landings since the Regia Marina and Royal Navy’s capital ships is there in force to support the troops coming ashore, and most of the Italian peninsula is under Axis and Allied air dominance. The Italian and Canadian troops thus get ashore more or less unopposed and soon begin to move inland. With Axis and Allied troops in his rear, and the Alpine passes stil contested, the German supply-lines are vunerable. General Schörner orders most of his reserves against the bridgeheads, only to see them slaughtered by generously applied air and sea power.
During the numerous smaller and larger Axis and Allied successes several guerilla uprisings take place in France, Holland, Belgium and other German coocupied territories. The actions of Pope Pius XII in the Vatican and the minor Central Powers don’t excatly help the Germans either!
Ciano, now Duce of Italia, and Dino Grandi finally manages to get the Vatican actively involved in the war. Evidence of the many Nazi attrocities and their genocide of among others the Jews finally tip opinions in the Vatican over into the Axis camp. The fact that the Axis is whole heartedly anti-Communist doesn’t hurt either.
In a radio-speech the Pope, Pius XII, give some rather graphic details of the Nazi mass-murders and indicated that not only was men killed without any pity or shame, but also women and children too; “Nazism is the arrogant apostasy from Jesus Christ, the denial of His doctrine and of His work of redemption, the cult of violence, idolatry of race and blood, the overthrow of human liberty and dignity!†Pius XII ends his speech by excomunicating Hitler.
In Hungary, where Admiral Horty, who is a catholic as most of Hungarians and never an anti-semite, rules, and in Slovakia, where the President of Slovakia is a priest, Monsignor Tiso, the Pope’s speech generates unrest among both the leadership and the public. Both countries, Hungary already planned for a case like this, withdraws from the Central Powers and their ambassadors in Bulgaria and Sweden ask for terms from Roma, and as somewhat of an afterthought London. Hungarian and Slovak forces on the Eastern Front immediately joins Axis units or seek towards Axis controlled territory. Whenever possible they fight both the Germans and the Soviets. As of 1944 the situation in the Ukraine is a complete mess.
In Croatia, Cardinal Stepinac, the Bishop of Zagreb, who had influence in the Ustasha movement, used every mean to condemn the insane acts of the Nazis and spur the Croatian people on to even greater resistance. The war in occupied Croatia had suddenly turned from bad to nasty for the Germans there. Whole towns are burned to the ground and untold numbers of civilians murdered by the special SS anti-partisan units, who in turn got ambused, tortured and killed on every possible chance.
Romania held on for a while, but Marshall Antonescu, who himself was quite a strong anti-semite, gave in and took Rumania out of the Central Powers. It was rumoured at the time, that Italian Commandos held Antonescu’s family hostage.
The Pope’s excommunication of Hitler and his denouncement of Nazism is a big turnaround for especially the Bavarians and the former Austrians. Passive resistance to the Nazi regime flourish and a slow trickle of deserters begin to make their way into Axis and Allied captivity. Here and there entire units mutinied! One of the best known deserters is General Erwin Rommel, who surrenders with most of his division. Rommel, and a surprisngly high number of men from his 7th Panzer Division, spends the rest of his life in exile in Tripoli, where he dies a bitter and broken man; “I have wasted the best men in pursuit of the worst possible cause!â€
In the Ukraine one of the wars most heroic acts took place around Odessa. The Julia Alpini Divison, trapped in Odessa by the Germans (Romanian forces was apparently not available to take part in the liberation of the city) and having ran out of ammunition tried to break out in a WWI-style bayonnet charge. One of the German officers present later accounted that the suicidal charge was beautiful, but not war! In the Crimean and eastern Ukraine a true of kinds between Soviet and Axis forces existed and the Germans are beaten back by General Ambrosio’s I. Armoured Corps and CCNN-general Francisci’s Camini Nere troops.
Over most of the USSR guerrilla bands are raiding German and Soviet depots for weapons and supplies, blowing up trains, mine roads and ambushing German and Soviet troops, but moslty they adopt hit and run tactics, blocking mountain passes and ambushing patrols.
Oil began to extracted from the growing Libyan oilfields in ´44. Until late the same year it would only be crude oil, but the first Italian refineries would come online in both Libya and on Sicily. The oil produced was mostly sold by the American oil companies, but the Italian used their part to partially substitute oil importes. The hard currency earned via the US corporations was used to buy material necessary to war effeort. Still the oil revenues prevented a economic collaps and even streghtened the Italian economy in certain areas!
In the far East the British with the aid of their Commonwealth allies finally had some good luck as General Slim begun to push back the Japanses forces in Burma and the Royal Navy entered the Indian Opcean in numbers again!
Timelie 1944:
January 6, 1944: In Italy, a new gas field is found at Cortemaggiore in the Po region, but the fighting prevent its use.
January 27, 1944: The Red Army break into Leningrad, but is unable to hold their gains against the Finno-German counter-attacks.
Febuary 16, 1944: Gestapo begins the resettlement of the Southern Tyrolers and other potentially pro-Italians to Poland and Belarussia.
March 4, 1944: Soviet troops begin an offensive on the Belorussian front. The Allies conduct their first major daylight bombing raid on Berlin.
Mussolini dies while in coma. Ciano is appointed Duce and backed by the Leonardi. Ciona speaks that eevning to the Italian people: “I speak to you today in order that you should hear my voice and should know that I am now in charge of the Italian Empire. Do not worry, my fellow Romans. We shall win this war and Italia’s sons, its Legionaires, will return home with pride. Be patient, my friends, and victory shall be ours!â€
March 18, 1944: British drop 3000 tons of bombs during an air raid on Hamburg, Germany. Luftwaffe’s defences are beggênning to crack.
March 20, 1944: Roberto Longhi’s first RE2007 jet-fighter takes to the skies. After two test flights, Italo Balbo himself tries the new plane. “It’s like flying with the angels themselves!â€
March 22, 1944: In Odessa the Alpini Division Julia is finally overwhelmed by the Germans, but goes down fighting in what is perhaps the hardest hand to hand combat ever seen.
April 8, 1944: German troops withdraw from eastern Ukraine as Axis troops under the Steppenwolf, General Ambrosio, and CCNN-general Francisci breaks out of the Crimean. The Regia Aeronautica has total air superiority over most of the Ukraine. Their new Macchi MC.200M’s reign supreme in the skies of the Ukraine.
April 12, 1944: Major uprisng in Kiev. German troops are forced out of the city.
April 20, 1944: A Macchi jet-bomber is tested for the first time.
May 1, 1044: In a widely broadcasted speech Pope Pius XII denounces Nazism and excomunicates Hitler as well!
The Regia Marina’s second carrier, the larger fleet carrier, Bruno Mussolini, begins its sea trials at Taranro. Work on the conversion of the liner Augustus into the Sparviero carrier is progressing rather slowly though.
May 9, 1944: Axis and Allied units break out into southern France. Troops are being landed around Toulon and Marseilles as well.
May 11, 1944: Axis and Allies launches a major attack aimed at recapturing the Po in northern Italia. The 7th German Panzer Division simply surrenders and the front line is broken. General Giovanni Messe’s II. Armoured Corps soon reaches Bolzano in an impressive and speedy blitz. The two armoured divisons under his command, Littorio and Centauro, have been re-equipped and refurbished with heavy P.41’s, and together with the mechanized Trieste and Lupi di Toscana divisions they achive a complete breakthrough.
May 12, 1944: Japanese admiral and commander of the Kido Butia, Chuichi Nagumo is killed as his plane is short down by british Mosquito’s over Dutch East Indies. Admiral Jisaburo Ozawa takes command instead!
May 14, 1944: After a final round of secret negotionas Hungary, Slovakia and Rumanian changes sides and joins the Axis. In Bukarest firefights erupts as pro-German Iron Guardas clash with pro-Axis loyalists. Marshall Antonescu and his family is said to be under the personal protection of the Italian Colonel Junio Borghese.
British and Indian forces clear the Arakan area in western Burma as aprt of a larger offensive against the Japanese in Burma. Under the more than competent command of General William Slim, or Our Bill as the vetarans from the last years dreadfull retreat affictionately call him, the Commenwealth forces have risen to the challenge and are now able to fight the Japanese on equal terms.
May 15, 1944: Germans withdraw from the Leningrad area. Finland seek an armistice, but Stalin rejects their pleas. London remain quite, while Roma and Madrid accepts.
May, 20, 1944: KM Graf Spee and KM Prinz Eugen ancors off Iceland and the crew surrenders. After that episode, a apoplectic Hitler orders all surface vessels of the Kriegsmarine to stay in port! The sailors are formed up in Naval Brigades and sent to the front.
May 25, 1944: Germans retreat from Southern France after having lost a large battle around Roussillon. The newer Axis and Allieds fighter bombers is takling a heavy toll on the Germans. Military analysts in both the SIM and the Allied ditto believe that Luftwaffe is definitively broken.
June 1, 1944: Disregarding the Axis acceptance of the Finnish peace proposal, the Soviets unleash a large offensive against the Finnish front.
June 5, 1944: Axis and Allied forces enter Lubjana. Later the same day Italian and Polish units cross into German occupied Croatia. Ustasha partisans and air dropped Italian Commandos greet the advancing troops.
June 6, 1944: Zagreb is liberated. Italo-British armoured formations race north in an attempt to cut off retreating German formations. British Generals Horrocks and Leese and Italian General Stefanis show themselves to be equals of the best German panzers leaders.
June 12, 1944: Operation Katarine begin. The Soviet summer offensive is centered at the central parts of the eatsren front. The Germans, who have suffered murderous casualties the last years begun to pull trops out of both France and Italia.
June 17, 1944: In a new naval clash at the Java Sea a Commonwealth task force under British Admiral Cunningham defeats a larger Japanese force. The Royal Navy once angain rules the sea!
June 26, 1944: Last German troops is pulled out of Italia. The town of Bressanone liquidated by SS-units in response for guerilla activity.
Commonwealth forces continue to press in to Burma, but encounters heavy Japanses resistance.
July 9, 1944: British and Spanish troops liberates Bordeaux.
July 13, 1944: French and British units enters Lyon.
July 20, 1944: German assassination attempt on Hitler fails. This time the SIM has nothing to do with it as most SIM operatives in Germany are either dead or hiding from Gestapo.
August 7, 1944: British troops “liberate†Vichy. Petain is found shot by Anglo-French troops entering his residence. Well-known writer and reistance fighter Albert Camus is charged with the murder, but is soon released due to lack of evidence. Camus is later elected French President and will be known as the Savior of the Empire..
August 20, 1944: Anne Frank and family arrested by the Gestapo in Amsterdam, Holland.
August 27, 1944: Germans begin a major counter-attack toward Lyon, but is stopped cold by Allied air power. Lancasters are used in a tactical role. British officers touring the bombed out remnants of the German assault force is horrified to see the result of the massive bomber attack.
August 29, 1944: Resistance uprising in Paris.
September 2, 1944: Soviet troops take Brest-Litovsk.
September 5, 1944: Polish Home Army uprising against Nazis in Warsaw begins. By direct request by both the Poles themselves, but also by the Axis, General Sosabovski's Independent Polish Air Brigade is dropped into the city.
September 7, 1944: Liberation of Paris.
September 10, 1944: Due to heavy US pressure and the USSR finally agree to a cease-fire with Finland. Ciano and his inner circle are furious that the British didn’t do more to help the Finns.
Commonwealth in northern Burma forces link up with Nationalist Chinese forces. Supplies begin to flow northeast into China again.
September 17, 1944: Operation Augustus is launched. Augustus is an airborn assault on southern Germany. Airborn units are to hold key areas, while mountain troops and Commandos capture the vital Alpine passes, so that Axis and Allies armoured formations in Operation Scipio can strike deep into Germany from the south. The operation is only partly successful as thousands of airborn troops are killed before the armour reaches their positions. Several hundreds British, Polish and Italian paras are saved by the local population. Innsbruck is, however, taken.
September 26, 1944: Soviet troops occupy Estonia.
October 2, 1944: Warsaw Uprising continues as tons of equipment is dropped by British planes, and the Polish Paras boost the Polish capitals defences.
October 10, 1944: Soviet troops capture Riga.
October 14, 1944: Axis and Allied forces enters Vienna. Several Waffe SS-units fight til the last bullet. The Hitler Jugend division is totally anihilated in the fighting. Its commander, General Meyer, commits suicide.
October 21, 1944. Massive German surrender around Vienna. Only Waffen SS-troops continue to fight.
October 23, 1944: Warsaw Uprising ends as the Polish Home Army finally is forced to surrenders to the Germans. Polish Paras slipping out of the city towards the east are being captured by Soviet forces and ends up in Gulags in Siberia. The last Paratrooper dies in 1966. The tale is only known after the collaps of the USSR in 1979.
October 24, 1944: Last pocket of resistance in Vienna is crushed.
October 30, 1944: Auschwitz is captured by the Soviet Red Army. For the rest of the war very few Germans are taken prisoner by the Soviets.
November 3-17, 1944: Battle of Münich. The Axis and Allied forces experience yet another bloody urban fight. Most of the civilian population aids the Axis and Allied units as best they can. Armed bands of Bavarians and Austrians are fighting side by side with the Italians.
November 17, 1944: Last SS and Wehrmacht units in Münich surrenders. SS-Obergruppenführer Karl Wolf orders his command to stand down and resistance in Bavaria effectively ends. The battered Axis and Allied forces are unable to exploite the break, since most of their units are exhusted and won out by the heavy fighting since Operations Augustus and Scipio.
November 21. 1944: Germans begin to evacated France and the low Countreis. They hope the form a defensive line at the Rhine.
December 1, 1944: Italo Balbo and Duce Ciano tours the front that has now stabilized in a line from Stuttgart to Regensburh. Everywhere they are greeted with enthusiasm by the Italian troops.
December 20, 1944: French and British troops reaches the Rhine.
December 24, 1944: French armoured units enters a jubilant Strasbourg.
December 31, 1944: Allied merchant shipping sunk by u-boots and raiders in ‘44 is only 433 ships, equalling 2,349,440 gross tons. 102 of the Kriegsmarine’s u-boots were lost during the same period. The Atlantic war is over for the Germans and once again the u-boots have lost…
1944
It is a curious thing that although every individual soldier returning from the Eastern Front considers himself personally superior to the Bolshevik soldier, we are still retreating and retreating!
- Joesph Goebbels.
The Italian armed forces will defend themselves from attacks coming from any other direction.
- Pietro Badoglio.
In Rome the mood is bleak as the Germans steadily fight their way south. The sense of loss is only substanciated as Mussolini dies in March. The young Count Ciano has been acting Duce since Mussolini’s stroke in late ´43 and has done a rather good job. He is, however, in many Italians eyes seen as a bit of a British lackey. Backed by the everpopular Balbo, Bottai and Grandi Ciano nonetheless tries to gain the fascist Grand Council nomination as Duce. The divisions within the National Fascist Party (PNF) already began to manifest when Mussolini suffered a stroke and came into the open with full force when he finally died. Ciano is as noted backed by the Leonardi, but strongly opposed by the Old Guards among Acille Staracce and Farinacci’s supporters, who called themselves Praetorians, and defined themselves as loyalists (opposed to the British dogs among the the Leonardi). Staracce and Farinacci don’t agree on much else than their opposition to the Leonardi. The two groups fought a brief political battle for the power in the Fascist Grand Council, but in the end the popular Leonardi won (it did help that Farinacci apparently disappeared).
After some major setbacks the war takes a definite turn for the better as the German advance in Northern Italia is finally stopped, and the Spanish, British, Free French and Polish forces cross fron Spain into France. In the east Italian Marines and Bersaglieri lands on the Croatian coast, while Canadians lands east of Venice. The German commander, General Schörner, in the area is close to panic, but is unanble to withstand the landings since the Regia Marina and Royal Navy’s capital ships is there in force to support the troops coming ashore, and most of the Italian peninsula is under Axis and Allied air dominance. The Italian and Canadian troops thus get ashore more or less unopposed and soon begin to move inland. With Axis and Allied troops in his rear, and the Alpine passes stil contested, the German supply-lines are vunerable. General Schörner orders most of his reserves against the bridgeheads, only to see them slaughtered by generously applied air and sea power.
During the numerous smaller and larger Axis and Allied successes several guerilla uprisings take place in France, Holland, Belgium and other German coocupied territories. The actions of Pope Pius XII in the Vatican and the minor Central Powers don’t excatly help the Germans either!
Ciano, now Duce of Italia, and Dino Grandi finally manages to get the Vatican actively involved in the war. Evidence of the many Nazi attrocities and their genocide of among others the Jews finally tip opinions in the Vatican over into the Axis camp. The fact that the Axis is whole heartedly anti-Communist doesn’t hurt either.
In a radio-speech the Pope, Pius XII, give some rather graphic details of the Nazi mass-murders and indicated that not only was men killed without any pity or shame, but also women and children too; “Nazism is the arrogant apostasy from Jesus Christ, the denial of His doctrine and of His work of redemption, the cult of violence, idolatry of race and blood, the overthrow of human liberty and dignity!†Pius XII ends his speech by excomunicating Hitler.
In Hungary, where Admiral Horty, who is a catholic as most of Hungarians and never an anti-semite, rules, and in Slovakia, where the President of Slovakia is a priest, Monsignor Tiso, the Pope’s speech generates unrest among both the leadership and the public. Both countries, Hungary already planned for a case like this, withdraws from the Central Powers and their ambassadors in Bulgaria and Sweden ask for terms from Roma, and as somewhat of an afterthought London. Hungarian and Slovak forces on the Eastern Front immediately joins Axis units or seek towards Axis controlled territory. Whenever possible they fight both the Germans and the Soviets. As of 1944 the situation in the Ukraine is a complete mess.
In Croatia, Cardinal Stepinac, the Bishop of Zagreb, who had influence in the Ustasha movement, used every mean to condemn the insane acts of the Nazis and spur the Croatian people on to even greater resistance. The war in occupied Croatia had suddenly turned from bad to nasty for the Germans there. Whole towns are burned to the ground and untold numbers of civilians murdered by the special SS anti-partisan units, who in turn got ambused, tortured and killed on every possible chance.
Romania held on for a while, but Marshall Antonescu, who himself was quite a strong anti-semite, gave in and took Rumania out of the Central Powers. It was rumoured at the time, that Italian Commandos held Antonescu’s family hostage.
The Pope’s excommunication of Hitler and his denouncement of Nazism is a big turnaround for especially the Bavarians and the former Austrians. Passive resistance to the Nazi regime flourish and a slow trickle of deserters begin to make their way into Axis and Allied captivity. Here and there entire units mutinied! One of the best known deserters is General Erwin Rommel, who surrenders with most of his division. Rommel, and a surprisngly high number of men from his 7th Panzer Division, spends the rest of his life in exile in Tripoli, where he dies a bitter and broken man; “I have wasted the best men in pursuit of the worst possible cause!â€
In the Ukraine one of the wars most heroic acts took place around Odessa. The Julia Alpini Divison, trapped in Odessa by the Germans (Romanian forces was apparently not available to take part in the liberation of the city) and having ran out of ammunition tried to break out in a WWI-style bayonnet charge. One of the German officers present later accounted that the suicidal charge was beautiful, but not war! In the Crimean and eastern Ukraine a true of kinds between Soviet and Axis forces existed and the Germans are beaten back by General Ambrosio’s I. Armoured Corps and CCNN-general Francisci’s Camini Nere troops.
Over most of the USSR guerrilla bands are raiding German and Soviet depots for weapons and supplies, blowing up trains, mine roads and ambushing German and Soviet troops, but moslty they adopt hit and run tactics, blocking mountain passes and ambushing patrols.
Oil began to extracted from the growing Libyan oilfields in ´44. Until late the same year it would only be crude oil, but the first Italian refineries would come online in both Libya and on Sicily. The oil produced was mostly sold by the American oil companies, but the Italian used their part to partially substitute oil importes. The hard currency earned via the US corporations was used to buy material necessary to war effeort. Still the oil revenues prevented a economic collaps and even streghtened the Italian economy in certain areas!
In the far East the British with the aid of their Commonwealth allies finally had some good luck as General Slim begun to push back the Japanses forces in Burma and the Royal Navy entered the Indian Opcean in numbers again!
Timelie 1944:
January 6, 1944: In Italy, a new gas field is found at Cortemaggiore in the Po region, but the fighting prevent its use.
January 27, 1944: The Red Army break into Leningrad, but is unable to hold their gains against the Finno-German counter-attacks.
Febuary 16, 1944: Gestapo begins the resettlement of the Southern Tyrolers and other potentially pro-Italians to Poland and Belarussia.
March 4, 1944: Soviet troops begin an offensive on the Belorussian front. The Allies conduct their first major daylight bombing raid on Berlin.
Mussolini dies while in coma. Ciano is appointed Duce and backed by the Leonardi. Ciona speaks that eevning to the Italian people: “I speak to you today in order that you should hear my voice and should know that I am now in charge of the Italian Empire. Do not worry, my fellow Romans. We shall win this war and Italia’s sons, its Legionaires, will return home with pride. Be patient, my friends, and victory shall be ours!â€
March 18, 1944: British drop 3000 tons of bombs during an air raid on Hamburg, Germany. Luftwaffe’s defences are beggênning to crack.
March 20, 1944: Roberto Longhi’s first RE2007 jet-fighter takes to the skies. After two test flights, Italo Balbo himself tries the new plane. “It’s like flying with the angels themselves!â€
March 22, 1944: In Odessa the Alpini Division Julia is finally overwhelmed by the Germans, but goes down fighting in what is perhaps the hardest hand to hand combat ever seen.
April 8, 1944: German troops withdraw from eastern Ukraine as Axis troops under the Steppenwolf, General Ambrosio, and CCNN-general Francisci breaks out of the Crimean. The Regia Aeronautica has total air superiority over most of the Ukraine. Their new Macchi MC.200M’s reign supreme in the skies of the Ukraine.
April 12, 1944: Major uprisng in Kiev. German troops are forced out of the city.
April 20, 1944: A Macchi jet-bomber is tested for the first time.
May 1, 1044: In a widely broadcasted speech Pope Pius XII denounces Nazism and excomunicates Hitler as well!
The Regia Marina’s second carrier, the larger fleet carrier, Bruno Mussolini, begins its sea trials at Taranro. Work on the conversion of the liner Augustus into the Sparviero carrier is progressing rather slowly though.
May 9, 1944: Axis and Allied units break out into southern France. Troops are being landed around Toulon and Marseilles as well.
May 11, 1944: Axis and Allies launches a major attack aimed at recapturing the Po in northern Italia. The 7th German Panzer Division simply surrenders and the front line is broken. General Giovanni Messe’s II. Armoured Corps soon reaches Bolzano in an impressive and speedy blitz. The two armoured divisons under his command, Littorio and Centauro, have been re-equipped and refurbished with heavy P.41’s, and together with the mechanized Trieste and Lupi di Toscana divisions they achive a complete breakthrough.
May 12, 1944: Japanese admiral and commander of the Kido Butia, Chuichi Nagumo is killed as his plane is short down by british Mosquito’s over Dutch East Indies. Admiral Jisaburo Ozawa takes command instead!
May 14, 1944: After a final round of secret negotionas Hungary, Slovakia and Rumanian changes sides and joins the Axis. In Bukarest firefights erupts as pro-German Iron Guardas clash with pro-Axis loyalists. Marshall Antonescu and his family is said to be under the personal protection of the Italian Colonel Junio Borghese.
British and Indian forces clear the Arakan area in western Burma as aprt of a larger offensive against the Japanese in Burma. Under the more than competent command of General William Slim, or Our Bill as the vetarans from the last years dreadfull retreat affictionately call him, the Commenwealth forces have risen to the challenge and are now able to fight the Japanese on equal terms.
May 15, 1944: Germans withdraw from the Leningrad area. Finland seek an armistice, but Stalin rejects their pleas. London remain quite, while Roma and Madrid accepts.
May, 20, 1944: KM Graf Spee and KM Prinz Eugen ancors off Iceland and the crew surrenders. After that episode, a apoplectic Hitler orders all surface vessels of the Kriegsmarine to stay in port! The sailors are formed up in Naval Brigades and sent to the front.
May 25, 1944: Germans retreat from Southern France after having lost a large battle around Roussillon. The newer Axis and Allieds fighter bombers is takling a heavy toll on the Germans. Military analysts in both the SIM and the Allied ditto believe that Luftwaffe is definitively broken.
June 1, 1944: Disregarding the Axis acceptance of the Finnish peace proposal, the Soviets unleash a large offensive against the Finnish front.
June 5, 1944: Axis and Allied forces enter Lubjana. Later the same day Italian and Polish units cross into German occupied Croatia. Ustasha partisans and air dropped Italian Commandos greet the advancing troops.
June 6, 1944: Zagreb is liberated. Italo-British armoured formations race north in an attempt to cut off retreating German formations. British Generals Horrocks and Leese and Italian General Stefanis show themselves to be equals of the best German panzers leaders.
June 12, 1944: Operation Katarine begin. The Soviet summer offensive is centered at the central parts of the eatsren front. The Germans, who have suffered murderous casualties the last years begun to pull trops out of both France and Italia.
June 17, 1944: In a new naval clash at the Java Sea a Commonwealth task force under British Admiral Cunningham defeats a larger Japanese force. The Royal Navy once angain rules the sea!
June 26, 1944: Last German troops is pulled out of Italia. The town of Bressanone liquidated by SS-units in response for guerilla activity.
Commonwealth forces continue to press in to Burma, but encounters heavy Japanses resistance.
July 9, 1944: British and Spanish troops liberates Bordeaux.
July 13, 1944: French and British units enters Lyon.
July 20, 1944: German assassination attempt on Hitler fails. This time the SIM has nothing to do with it as most SIM operatives in Germany are either dead or hiding from Gestapo.
August 7, 1944: British troops “liberate†Vichy. Petain is found shot by Anglo-French troops entering his residence. Well-known writer and reistance fighter Albert Camus is charged with the murder, but is soon released due to lack of evidence. Camus is later elected French President and will be known as the Savior of the Empire..
August 20, 1944: Anne Frank and family arrested by the Gestapo in Amsterdam, Holland.
August 27, 1944: Germans begin a major counter-attack toward Lyon, but is stopped cold by Allied air power. Lancasters are used in a tactical role. British officers touring the bombed out remnants of the German assault force is horrified to see the result of the massive bomber attack.
August 29, 1944: Resistance uprising in Paris.
September 2, 1944: Soviet troops take Brest-Litovsk.
September 5, 1944: Polish Home Army uprising against Nazis in Warsaw begins. By direct request by both the Poles themselves, but also by the Axis, General Sosabovski's Independent Polish Air Brigade is dropped into the city.
September 7, 1944: Liberation of Paris.
September 10, 1944: Due to heavy US pressure and the USSR finally agree to a cease-fire with Finland. Ciano and his inner circle are furious that the British didn’t do more to help the Finns.
Commonwealth in northern Burma forces link up with Nationalist Chinese forces. Supplies begin to flow northeast into China again.
September 17, 1944: Operation Augustus is launched. Augustus is an airborn assault on southern Germany. Airborn units are to hold key areas, while mountain troops and Commandos capture the vital Alpine passes, so that Axis and Allies armoured formations in Operation Scipio can strike deep into Germany from the south. The operation is only partly successful as thousands of airborn troops are killed before the armour reaches their positions. Several hundreds British, Polish and Italian paras are saved by the local population. Innsbruck is, however, taken.
September 26, 1944: Soviet troops occupy Estonia.
October 2, 1944: Warsaw Uprising continues as tons of equipment is dropped by British planes, and the Polish Paras boost the Polish capitals defences.
October 10, 1944: Soviet troops capture Riga.
October 14, 1944: Axis and Allied forces enters Vienna. Several Waffe SS-units fight til the last bullet. The Hitler Jugend division is totally anihilated in the fighting. Its commander, General Meyer, commits suicide.
October 21, 1944. Massive German surrender around Vienna. Only Waffen SS-troops continue to fight.
October 23, 1944: Warsaw Uprising ends as the Polish Home Army finally is forced to surrenders to the Germans. Polish Paras slipping out of the city towards the east are being captured by Soviet forces and ends up in Gulags in Siberia. The last Paratrooper dies in 1966. The tale is only known after the collaps of the USSR in 1979.
October 24, 1944: Last pocket of resistance in Vienna is crushed.
October 30, 1944: Auschwitz is captured by the Soviet Red Army. For the rest of the war very few Germans are taken prisoner by the Soviets.
November 3-17, 1944: Battle of Münich. The Axis and Allied forces experience yet another bloody urban fight. Most of the civilian population aids the Axis and Allied units as best they can. Armed bands of Bavarians and Austrians are fighting side by side with the Italians.
November 17, 1944: Last SS and Wehrmacht units in Münich surrenders. SS-Obergruppenführer Karl Wolf orders his command to stand down and resistance in Bavaria effectively ends. The battered Axis and Allied forces are unable to exploite the break, since most of their units are exhusted and won out by the heavy fighting since Operations Augustus and Scipio.
November 21. 1944: Germans begin to evacated France and the low Countreis. They hope the form a defensive line at the Rhine.
December 1, 1944: Italo Balbo and Duce Ciano tours the front that has now stabilized in a line from Stuttgart to Regensburh. Everywhere they are greeted with enthusiasm by the Italian troops.
December 20, 1944: French and British troops reaches the Rhine.
December 24, 1944: French armoured units enters a jubilant Strasbourg.
December 31, 1944: Allied merchant shipping sunk by u-boots and raiders in ‘44 is only 433 ships, equalling 2,349,440 gross tons. 102 of the Kriegsmarine’s u-boots were lost during the same period. The Atlantic war is over for the Germans and once again the u-boots have lost…
Sigh, I finally did it!
Sorry for the long wait, but I had an inspirational break down!
This 1944 post is just a rather rough draft, but I'd like some input before I finalize it! There need to be more material on what's going on in the Ukraine, the Balkans and out East, yes? Ideas?
I stole the idea (one of many I've borrowed ) of excommunicating old Adolf from a discussion we once had at the Comando Supremo, and I kinda liked it! But how would it have worked in reality?
So, what do ya all say?
Best regards!
- B.
Sorry for the long wait, but I had an inspirational break down!
This 1944 post is just a rather rough draft, but I'd like some input before I finalize it! There need to be more material on what's going on in the Ukraine, the Balkans and out East, yes? Ideas?
I stole the idea (one of many I've borrowed
) of excommunicating old Adolf from a discussion we once had at the Comando Supremo, and I kinda liked it! But how would it have worked in reality?So, what do ya all say?
Best regards!
- B.
Mr.Bluenote said:Sigh, I finally did it!
Sorry for the long wait, but I had an inspirational break down!
This 1944 post is just a rather rough draft, but I'd like some input before I finalize it! There need to be more material on what's going on in the Ukraine, the Balkans and out East, yes? Ideas?
I stole the idea (one of many I've borrowed
So, what do ya all say?
Best regards!
- B.
Very good TL, Bluenote! I found it just today, and read all of it in a whiff.
I agree with most of your scenario, and in particular with the idea that the Axis will move soon toward democracy. As usual, it is much easier to enforce a dictatorship when economy is not going well. The future looks quite good for Italy, what with the oil found in Lybia and (I expect) with an economic sphere of influence in Ukraina and the Middle East.
What happened to fermi and his research group? are we going to see the Italians nuke Berlin?
TTL is quite an improvement for the Balkans too. Besides the fact that war ravages are less than in OTL, the region should be spared a Russian occupation.
Go on with the good work!
I'm lookin
Thanks alot Kalvan! There's quite a few rather embarassing spelling mistakes etc etc, but I'm glad you liked it!LordKalvan said:
I have this strange notion that Ciano creates some kind of Mediterrenean (incl. the Balkan nations, Iraq, Persia and the Ukraine) Forum of Nations ala the EU. Democratization will probably set in a few years after the war.LordKalvan said:
Heh, yeah, I thought about that, but the Italians don't really have the means to do it that quickly, but sometimes around 1950, there might rise a mushroom cloud somewhere out in the Libyan desert!LordKalvan said:
It's been a while since I wrote the encounter (and read about it), but didn't Bismarck leak oil? I'm not certain further combat would necessarily increase that leak, but point taken, C!Cockroach said:
Anyway, thanks for the commenst!
Best regards!
- Bluenote.
Yes, a Mediterranean pact would be very nice, and stabilize the region.
I've also the notion that Palestine would be much quieter, since there would be on one side a strong Turkish umbrella, and on the other a stable Iraq: between the two, it should be possible to steer Syria, Lebanon and Palestine toward a peaceful development. By the way, in this scenario it is quite likely that a large portion of the jewish refugees would be settled in Lybia and in Ethiopia (in particular Lybia would require substantial numbers to develop the oil industry and the petrochemical): this would be helpful to defuse the crisis in Palestine (less impact of the Holocaust, less guilty feelings in Europe, and thriving Jewish settlements which would attract the post-war refugees).
If this Mediterranean pact may be extended to the Black Sea countries (Ukraine, Romania and Bulgaria) it would result in a very strong economic area, with important resources in both population, agriculture and mining (plus a lot of oil)
I've also the notion that Palestine would be much quieter, since there would be on one side a strong Turkish umbrella, and on the other a stable Iraq: between the two, it should be possible to steer Syria, Lebanon and Palestine toward a peaceful development. By the way, in this scenario it is quite likely that a large portion of the jewish refugees would be settled in Lybia and in Ethiopia (in particular Lybia would require substantial numbers to develop the oil industry and the petrochemical): this would be helpful to defuse the crisis in Palestine (less impact of the Holocaust, less guilty feelings in Europe, and thriving Jewish settlements which would attract the post-war refugees).
If this Mediterranean pact may be extended to the Black Sea countries (Ukraine, Romania and Bulgaria) it would result in a very strong economic area, with important resources in both population, agriculture and mining (plus a lot of oil)
There's one heck of a potential at least if the Pact is able to survive, yes. Iin the beginning it would be hard pressed though, I think. The war has ruined the economy and most of Ukraine, if not all of it, Spain is still recovering from the Civil War and Northern Italiy and parts of the Balkans has been fought over.LordKalvan said:
Considering the strange economic notions of Fascism, I could see the Pact as something like COMECON...
But I think I'll take the Pact in the EU direction or what do you say?Indeed! Very good points! The entire political situation in the Middle East would very different form OTL, no doubt! I'm prone to believe, however, that the UK would still have a lot of trouble with the Arabs, considering that the Axis apparently treat them more respectfully and as independent countries, nor just coloinies. The state of Israel would probably never exist, but some Jewish movements would most likely still call for a true homeland. Still, the Italian overseas parts (the Empire) would benefit greatly from its close association with the Jews, drawing in educated and hard working immigrants and American investments en masse.LordKalvan said:
Regards!
- B.
I am looking forward to a Marshall Plan to rebuild Europe after the war. Given the overall good relations between Italy and USA in TTL, I assume that the Axis will get its share. Plus there is oil in Lybia and in Mosul (even without getting ambitious in Persia or in Saudi Arabia, at least Kuwait should pass from British to Axis sphere of influence): all of this means big money, and since the American oil companies are already active in Lybia and the American jews remember who accepted the regees during the war....
Hmm, would there be a Marshall Plan? The US is not at war, so...? Favorably loans, some continuation of lend-Leese perhaps, but a Marshall Plan?LordKalvan said:
The honeymoon of the Axis and British led Allies won't hold forever - to many divergent interests, primarily economic, I'd say. The Brits will most likely fight tooth and nail to keep Kuwait, Saudi Arabia and Egypt in their sphere of influence, while Italy, and the Axis as such, probably have more than enough on its plate already.LordKalvan said:
Besides, how much does oil matter in the post-war world? It's my impression that most oil was used for fuel, while the various industries, power plants etc etc was coal driven? If so, in a world somewhat ruined by the war, would the demand of oil be very high anywhere else than in the US?
I'm think of having Italy and the Axis reenginering, so to speak, their industries and infrastructure, so that natural gas will by used for heat and oil as fuel for power plants ect etc.
As a combination of factors the US will help the Axis as best it can - anything else would be political suicide, I think!
And, yes, it would seem that we share an interests in some TLs, Kalvan!
Best regards!
- Bluenote.
Last edited:
This was actually a question I wanted to know. Do you have plans for bringing the US into the War. And who will help the British defeat the Japense: Italia or nobody.
Also, how dominant do you plan on making Italia in the post-war world. World power type nation that gets what it wants, or something less massive. I ask because this thread is entitled Italia Eterna and, to me at least, it would make sense if Italia was a predomiant and poweful country.
Oh, and I just want to say that its very good and that I can't wait for further updates.
Well, most ATL's tend to bring in the US, but I think I'll leave them out of this one. There's no Japanese attack on Pearl and the Germans are having their own troubles, and lots of them as it is, so no... I think...Pendragon said:
Without being involved in the war, I'm having some difficulties seeing a Marshall Plan, at least as we know it form OTL. What's do you guys say? Kalvan?
Italy will be way more powerfull in this ATL, than OTL, no doubt. Fermi and Co will develope the Bomb sooner or later, there's oil in the Empire and the Mediterreanen Pact and Forum of Nations will give Italy a lot more influence that ever before. As I wrote Italia Eterna I begun to, eh, appriciate the problems facing the Italians, so it would be almost ASB if Italy ended up as a superpower...Pendragon said:
I suppose we'll end up having three powerblocks (and a somewhat isolationistic USA on the sidelines); the Commonwealth, the Italian Empire and the USSR.
Thank you very much, Pendragon! I'll try to post 1945 within the next few days. I'll plan to end the TL with 1945 and a post-war Epilogue... unless of course there's a public demand for more!Pendragon said:
My regards!
- Mr.B.
the idea of keeping the USA out of WW2 is attractive: at least a change with 99% of TL. I see no problem on the European front, but what is going to happen in the Pacific?
As a minimum, I might expect Japan to occupy French Indochina and DEI. I do not think that either UK or the USA can accept this scenario without protest (or without entering into a war), even if the Japanese make no hostile move against Hong Kong or Singapore.
So we might have a "limited" war scenario: the Japanese occupy Indochina, but this triggers English reaction. Australian forces occupy the DEI to "protect and safeguard Dutch interests". Now what? A reasonable bet would be the USA blessing this intervention, and backing English guarantee. It would even be possible to have the marines occupying the Moluccas from Philippines. At this stage there should be also an oil embargo against Japan (to force them to release Indochina, and against their war in China). OTOH, the English are much less pressed than in OTL, and they should have more ships available for the SE Asia theatre (and ANZAC/Indian troops who can be deployed in the DEI). If the Americans "occupy" a part of the DEI, they should be much more aware of the danger of Japanese reprisals, so even PH becomes more unlikely. But the key point is that Japan without DEI oil cannot survive. So what would you expect?
Marshall Plan: granted, if there are no Americans on the European front, it is quite likely that there will be no Marshall Plan as such. OTOH, I would like to hope that USA will see the advantage in having a stable Mediterranean region, and that the good Italian/USA relations established in the thirties will continue. Instead of pure aid, you could have land lease, or joint development (I'm always thinking of Ukraine, which would be a great place to develop). And there is serious oil money: Lybia and Iraq, as a minimum.
Obviously a lot will depend on who will be elected as US president after Roosvelt. Another important issue will be what kind of France will come out of the war, and if they will fall within the arms of the British Empire (more likely) or of the Axis.
Let me make a wild guess: UK will come out of the war in a much better shape than in OTL. In particular in the SE Asia and Pacific. They will be much more reluctant to let the Empire go (and there will be also less centrifugal forces). It is possible that the USA may not be elated by this revival of Impaerial policies, and become more friendly to the Axis
As a minimum, I might expect Japan to occupy French Indochina and DEI. I do not think that either UK or the USA can accept this scenario without protest (or without entering into a war), even if the Japanese make no hostile move against Hong Kong or Singapore.
So we might have a "limited" war scenario: the Japanese occupy Indochina, but this triggers English reaction. Australian forces occupy the DEI to "protect and safeguard Dutch interests". Now what? A reasonable bet would be the USA blessing this intervention, and backing English guarantee. It would even be possible to have the marines occupying the Moluccas from Philippines. At this stage there should be also an oil embargo against Japan (to force them to release Indochina, and against their war in China). OTOH, the English are much less pressed than in OTL, and they should have more ships available for the SE Asia theatre (and ANZAC/Indian troops who can be deployed in the DEI). If the Americans "occupy" a part of the DEI, they should be much more aware of the danger of Japanese reprisals, so even PH becomes more unlikely. But the key point is that Japan without DEI oil cannot survive. So what would you expect?
Marshall Plan: granted, if there are no Americans on the European front, it is quite likely that there will be no Marshall Plan as such. OTOH, I would like to hope that USA will see the advantage in having a stable Mediterranean region, and that the good Italian/USA relations established in the thirties will continue. Instead of pure aid, you could have land lease, or joint development (I'm always thinking of Ukraine, which would be a great place to develop). And there is serious oil money: Lybia and Iraq, as a minimum.
Obviously a lot will depend on who will be elected as US president after Roosvelt. Another important issue will be what kind of France will come out of the war, and if they will fall within the arms of the British Empire (more likely) or of the Axis.
Let me make a wild guess: UK will come out of the war in a much better shape than in OTL. In particular in the SE Asia and Pacific. They will be much more reluctant to let the Empire go (and there will be also less centrifugal forces). It is possible that the USA may not be elated by this revival of Impaerial policies, and become more friendly to the Axis
With Britian having attacted Vichy French in North Africa, I can see hard feeling between the two after the war.
?Why didn't the British India Army occupy Vichy Indo China at the same time as Africa fight? ?And what happened to Vichy Caribean?
Given a extra year of only China, ?did the Japanese do better there?
?Why didn't the British India Army occupy Vichy Indo China at the same time as Africa fight? ?And what happened to Vichy Caribean?
Given a extra year of only China, ?did the Japanese do better there?
Haha, yes, quite right!LordKalvan said:
Hmm, in OTL the Japanese more or less took over Indochina from Vichy after the Vichy-Siam (Thailand) war, and the US didn't do much else than rattle the saber. I must admit that I think, that outside a direct attack on the US (or the Phillipines), FDR would have a very, very difficult time getting the US involved in the war. I know I wrote about the American promise to defend Australia and New Zealand, but that's as far as I see the US go... Am I wrong, you think? I might be overestimating the unwillingness of the US to go to war...LordKalvan said:
Oh, they originally got oil via their best buddies the Italians. Third party trading and all that. That's why, the Japanses are not as desperate as in OTL. No need to provoke the US, just go after the Allies... Now, without the Italians, they have to move fast, yes, but since they'r not at war with the US, they'll have a lot more to throw at the Dutch and British in SEA...LordKalvan said:
Well,without the war, I think Dewey would win out... Anyway, you'r right, the US will see the Med as a prime investment area, but how much they'll care fot the British Empire? Hmm, hard to say.LordKalvan said:
France and to a lesser degree the British will be somewhat in trouble, no Marshall Plan means no limitless access to US aid, hence France will have to rebuild on its own, but the country is not as devastated ATL, and the Brits wil be stuck with the bill (both in blood and gold - see question at the bottom of my post please) for the war. In this case I'd rather say the Brits would be in worse shape than OTL, but I'm not sure about that!
I totally agree on the British Empire though, the Brits would try as best they could to keep the Empire, even with Atlee and Bevin at the helm. Britain would need the Empire to revieve and rebuild their own economy in the post-war world, and for security too, not to forget!
Yeah, but DeGaulle and his Free French are around in hte IE TL, so not to many hard feelings, I'd say... on the other hand the French seem to have a looong memory!DuQuense said:
Regarding Indochina, I suppose, as mentioned above, the Japanese were already in place. The Free French propably got the French possesions in the Caribean and elsewhere as in OTL.Hmm, didn't really think of that, I must say, but yeah, most likely...DuQuense said:
Regarding the butchers bill being paid by the Brits, and our imperialistic Japanese friends, how will the end be for Japan? There's no US and no nukes (yet), so will the British have to invade, or what's your take? A British Empire invasion of Japan itself will cost them dearly (to say the very least)...
Thanks for the comments!
Best regards!
- Bluenote.