Sir John Valentine Carden Survives. Part 2.

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Nevarinemex

Ramp-Rat said:
So our author has decided to write out of TTL, HIM General D MacArthur his wife, and his staff and other unnamed VIP’s. I am forced to wonder if this includes President M L Quezon and his wife, and his deputy, plus a significant amount of the Philippines treasury. This will have a major effect on events ITTL, and has repercussions for the conduct of the war and the subsequent peace. In particular who will be the American Viceroy in Japan post war, and should there be a conflict in Korea post war, who’s going to be incharged of the conduct of that campaign. However getting back to the events as are, let us examine the possible results of what has occurred. FDR is going to be a very relived man, as a serious thorn in his side and potential political rival, has been removed from the table, and he can rightly claim that it had nothing to do with him. Unfortunately his joy is only going to be short lived, as with the greater success of the British, and the removal of the one man he could have tried to place in a command position, Winston is going to demand that the entire South Western Pacific region especially Australia and New Zealand, is going to have a British commander. The one thing he can do is take the high ground, and refrain from any criticism of Mac, he can leave that up to the Navy, who are going to be incensed that a valuable submarine and its crew have been lost, because of the demands of an Army General. General Marshal while personally relieved that MacArther is no longer around, is going to be furious that Mac’s actions have put him in a position with the USN, where he is going to have to make an abject apology. And possibly if the USN insists, having to send out a a order to every Army officer that when they are aboard a Navy ship, the captain of the ship has ultimate authority. Winston who truth be told couldn’t care less about the death of an American General, will send his condolences to the American people at the loss of such a prominent American, as this will be the most senior American officer to be killed during the war. If he is asked for his opinion, he will say that in his opinion MacArthur was unwise to put all his eggs in to one basket. Which is British speak for the man was a raving egomaniac who refused to take advantage of the generous offer from the British to use a British submarine for him or some of his party, and thus brought this disaster on his own head. In the short term this incident will have very little impact on the ongoing conduct of the war, and it is only in the long term that repercussions will play out. The British will continue their successful campaign in Malaya, and trying to provide such support as they can to the American forces in the Philippines. While the Americans will at the insistence of the USN, relegate the Philippines campaign to the back burner, while concentrating on their pre war strategy of a major offensive through the central Pacific. The war in the South Western Pacific is going to take a very different path ITTL to the one followed IOTL, not only because of the death of MacArthur, but because the events in Malaysia and the DEI’s have taken such a different course than those IOTL.

RR.
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I prefer this scenario. Unfortunately, I don't have a piping tab to know the sanitary system on WW2 pig boat. So it may be wrong.
And it's all /sarc

It's the midwatch. The General heads to the head to do his business. He is unaware that the sanitary tanks are emptied during that time.
He passes his superfluous water (my apologies to Oscar Brand and the Bishop of Chichester's daughter). He opens the ball valve and
is covered by the materials in the tank. Neither the hull or backup are opened, so he gets the full effect. Dysentery sets in and while he
is the only fatality, the submarine gets thru unscathed.

A burial at sea, with honors and a chorus of Melita.
"Eternal Father strong to save, who's arm didst bind Mac's rant n rave.
Who bidst's the septic system flush, upon the General in such a rush.
Oh hear us when we cry to thee, "cleanup O head" o'er the 1 MC."
 
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Salamander

Nevarinemex said:
I prefer this scenario. Unfortunately, I don't have a piping tab to know the sanitary system on WW2 pig boat. So it may be wrong.
And it's all /sarc

It's the midwatch. The General heads to the head to do his business. He is unaware that the sanitary tanks are emptied during that time.
He passes his superfluous water (my apologies to Oscar Brand and the Bishop of Chichester's daughter). He opens the ball valve and
is covered by the materials in the tank. Neither the hull or backup are opened, so he gets the full effect. Dysentery sets in and while he
is the only fatality, the submarine gets thru unscathed.

A burial at sea, with honors and a chorus of Melita.
"Eternal Father strong to save, who's arm didst bind Mac's rant n rave.
Who bidst's the septic system flush, upon the General in such a rush.
Oh hear us when we cry to thee, "cleanup O head" o'er the 1 MC."
Click to expand...
Considering MacArthur's ego, and the complicated nature of marine, especially submarine, toilets, it is entirely possible that he may have sunk the submarine by accident during the last radio transmission. This has happened IOTL with the notable case of U-1206 (see below). If so, then I find it to be an appropriate ending for such as he, although no-one else aboard deserve that fate. Personally, I'm holding out hope that the sub survived, but that MacArthur was 'accidentally' launched out of a torpedo tube as part of efforts to escape the Japanese attacks.
en.wikipedia.org

German submarine U-1206 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
 

Seawolf

Salamander said:
This has happened IOTL with the notable case of U-1206 (see below). If so, then I find it to be an appropriate ending for such as he, although no-one else aboard deserve that fate.
Click to expand...

To be entirely honest, I can actually believe this happened even by accident and not even by MacArthur but even a regular submariner accidentally manipulating the wrong valve due to a hand-eye coordination fuck up.
 

Sam R.

1) At least we didn't derail with Indian Army ration standards (which counts as British Food Discussion given that Britain as a kingdom is part of the Empire formed when India allowed itself to be conquered again)… Convincing Sikh and Muslim that it is both jhatka and halal was an achievement of military marketing in WWII…
2) MacArthur's submarine has stopped broadcasting. He may be dead. He may be alive. He may be captured. He may be tortured. He may be, as in the short anti-fascist comic Planet of the Jap,*1 be beheaded stoically. Or he may leak codes. He may have been *about* to be captured and committed ritual western suicide which involves a small pistol and a second. Any number of things may be.
3) This doesn't feel like butterflyitis… it feels like rolling 1-8 instead of 9-10 on the dice.

Sam R.

*1 Strongly recommend, won't link to infringement, but it has been considered as a work worthy of scholarly interpretation
 

PMN1

Look More Closely Later said:
Problem here for the Americans is if the Imperial Japanese have in fact captured them when the sub surfaced since MacArthur and his staff know things such as the extent to which Imperial Japanese codes have been compromised by the USA. If in the next couple of updates the Imperial Japanese suddenly change all their ciphers... well, that's going to be a clue that MacArthur may now be on his way to a Prisoner of War camp.
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Interesting possibility....
 
Ramp-Rat

Ramp-Rat

Monthly Donor
Having taken more time to reflect on the death due to his own hubris and arrogance of General D MacArthur, I would like to postulate on one major short term change that will occur as a result. IOTL, Mac had stated prior to the fall of the Philippines, that an effective resistance movement in the islands was impossible, and thus had made no preparations for the establishment of one. In addition he was ostensibly for moral purposes, wasn’t going to admit to the possibility of defeat, as in his mind there was no way that the inferior Japanese could ever beat him. This attitude meant IOTL, that not only were no preparations made for a post defeat resistance movement made, but that after the defeat he was trapped by his own rhetoric that a resistance movement was impossible. So not only did he fail to support those movements that arose spontaneously, he also obstructed efforts by others to support and establish resistance movements. With him now out of the game, and even though it’s very late, efforts to establish resistance movements and support them can now be initiated. With him removed from the scene, the Americans can start to form a resistance movement under the direction of what ever organisation is established ITTL, that is the equivalent of the OSS of OTL. And using submarines and local surface craft, based out of Singapore and parts of the DEI, deliver supplies and operatives into the Philippines, while evacuating civilians, wounded and uncaptuted military personnel. At first the majority of the submarines were have to be British and Dutch, while the local boats will be escaped Philippines shipping with a mix of US and Philippines crews. Later on it will be an all American operation, once repair and maintenance services have been established in Singapore and the DEI. Why would the Americans want to provide this service from Singapore and the DEI, as apposed to using Hawaii, distance, its only about a thousand miles from Singapore or the DEI, to the Philippines, were as its close to three thousand miles from Hawaii. By 1944, the Americans will have a fully established intelligence and sabotaged system throughout the Philippines. However this will have a major impact on post war relations between Japan and the Philippines. As given the normal Japanese methods of dealing with insurgents, which was brutal to say the least. I foresee there being substantial tension between the parties for a long time post war. As have previous said MacArthurs demise is going to have serious repercussions both during the war and in the immediate post war era.

RR.
 

kelgar04

Hmm could MacArthurs death cause more issues for Japanese Americans than it did OTL I know the Majority were put into detention camps but could we see a more hostile reaction. Particularly if Republican Media outlets cause a frenzy.
 

MarcH

kelgar04 said:
Hmm could MacArthurs death cause more issues for Japanese Americans than it did OTL I know the Majority were put into detention camps but could we see a more hostile reaction. Particularly if Republican Media outlets cause a frenzy.
Click to expand...
Think that depends on how it plays out. If the Navy releases that MacArthur overrode the Submarine Captain and essentially got himself killed then maybe not. That wouldn't be a likely event I admit but if things get bad enough in the public eye some unfortunate leaks that happen to help the Navy may occur.
 

Sqdn19

wietze said:
well with mcarthur dying earlier, there will a lot less expansion stress on the universe lol (i suspect it is expanding to become big enough to hold mcA's ego)
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We’ve still got King & DeGaulle, mind. And Churchill’s, unless Brooke has managed to get both his and Montgomery’s under control.
 

Sqdn19

Others will know better, but I do wonder if a USN sub commander would take orders from an Army officer, irrespective of rank.

Especially if said army officer’s refusal to allow his superior to move supplies as spare parts out of the way of the Japanese. I imagine the average submariner without torpedoes in a war zone would be inclined to be ‘moderately frustrated’ with the army wallah whose incompetence and pride lead to their loss.

EDIT: Also, weren’t IJN depth-charges set too high to do much damage at this point in the war?
 
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Nevarinemex

Seawolf said:
To be entirely honest, I can actually believe this happened even by accident and not even by MacArthur but even a regular submariner accidentally manipulating the wrong valve due to a hand-eye coordination fuck up.
Click to expand...
Actually it doesn't have to be a valve. Cycle the wrong electrical bus and you have to follow the bubble on the planes. Passing test depth in 3,2,1...
 

Nevarinemex

Sqdn19 said:
Others will know better, but I do wonder if a USN sub commander would take orders from an Army officer, irrespective of rank.

Especially if said army officer’s refusal to allow his superior to move supplies as spare parts out of the way of the Japanese. I imagine the average submariner without torpedoes in a war zone would be inclined to be ‘moderately frustrated’ with the army wallah whose incompetence and pride lead to their loss.
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The riders are NUBS (non-useful bodies). GEN MacArthur is not a commissioned nor submarine qualified Naval Line Submarine officer.
By law, he cannot issue the orders aboard a commissioned US warship. The crew while aware of the General's authority ashore, will
simply see him as another Non-Qual.

The General will be aware from his late brother, that the Captain of boat is almost inviolable at sea. Unless he is LCDR Queeg, USNR.
As intensely award conscious as GEN MacArthur, I would guess that he would be looking to add a Navy Cross to his medals list.
And more important, attaining the status of "Trusty Shellback" from presently being a "Scumbag Pollywog"! This happens if he
lives long enough to "Cross the Line". Hmmm. Who is the Royal Baby in King Neptune's Court?

www.liveabout.com

Shellback Ceremony Rite of Initiation

The Shellback ceremony description, what happens, and a description of various observances.
www.liveabout.com www.liveabout.com

Neptunus Rex Certificate: Date (Classified) Latitude 0.00.00" Longitude (Classified)
 
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Nevarinemex

allanpcameron said:
11 March 1942. Mindoro, Philippines.

With the fall of Bataan, the need to evacuate General Douglas MacArthur, his family and others VIPs from the Philippines had become urgent. While the final battles on Bataan were taking place, MacArthur’s group were evacuated on 8 March by a number of PT boats, initially to Mindoro. The original plan to take the General to Mindanao to be evacuated by air had proven too difficult to organise. The B17s had been used extensively and most were in need of replacement.

The dispatch of four B17s from Darwin to Mindanao had resulted in only one reaching the landing strip, and being judged unsafe to carry the VIPs. The question of when more suitable aircraft would be available was judged to be too long. President Roosevelt had ordered MacArthur out of the Philippines on 22 February and this order was reiterated again on 9 March. It was estimated that suitable aircraft wouldn’t be available until 16 March, and Washington would not countenance the delay any longer.

The two British submarines, HMS Porpoise and Rorqual, had been back and forth from Singapore, bringing in tons of supplies and evacuating as many specialists and wounded as possible. In addition to the American submarines doing the same, it was felt that MacArthur’s evacuation by submarine would be the safest way.

When informed of this, the General could not agree to be evacuated by the Royal Navy, it would have to be a USN submarine or nothing. USS Permit, having already evacuated Admiral Thomas Hart, was tasked with collecting the General and his party. The two Royal Navy Submarines would take turns to enter Corregidor and rescue as many people as they could. USS Permit would have the less hazardous collection of MacArthur’s party from San Jose on Mindoro.

Having sailed from San Jose during the night of 10/11 March, USS Permit’s captain, Lieutenant Commander Adrian Hurst, had planned to follow the same route he’d taken Admiral Hart to Surabaya, from where he could be flown to Australia. General MacArthur had other ideas. He wanted to head directly for Darwin, which Hurst argued was a more dangerous route, as it would take them close to a number of Japanese bases. Hurst was overruled, and set off on a course that would take them past Zamboanga. The last radio report from USS Permit was received at 22:00hrs, reporting they had been damaged by depth charges and had to surface. The radio message ended abruptly. General MacArthur, his family, staff and the crew of USS Permit were posted missing, believed killed in action.
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"On Eternal Patrol"
 
dxe131

dxe131

Sam R. said:
1) At least we didn't derail with Indian Army ration standards (which counts as British Food Discussion given that Britain as a kingdom is part of the Empire formed when India allowed itself to be conquered again)… Convincing Sikh and Muslim that it is both jhatka and halal was an achievement of military marketing in WWII…
Click to expand...
Where might I find out more about the Indian Army ration standards? I need a new rabbit hole. :D
 
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