December 28th, 1941: The Day of Infamy

Gridley

MUC said:
IMHO the IJN losses in this ATL-battle were a bit too heavy for too few losses on the USN side. I expected the Japanese to have scored more hits on the US battle line.
There is also no mention of the Japanese using Lond Lance torpedoes here. Wasn't that common practice for the IJN?
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Read the second paragraph.

Sir Chaos said:
Two destroyers have that many torpedoes?

Also, I´m pretty sure destroyer torpedo batteries were mounted on the centerline, to be fired to either side; only cruisers had separate sets of tubes on either side.

15 torpedoes out of 32 sounds a bit much as well; make that 6 or 8 DDs that had outflanked the Japanese screen in order to attack the battle line with torpedoes, only arriving after the main battle was mostly over. The US certainly has enough DDs in their screen that they Japanese cannot keep them all away.
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http://destroyerhistory.org/goldplater/index.asp?class=GridleyClass
"Torpedo battery: Sixteen 21-inch trainable torpedo tubes: two quadruple wing mounts on each side of the main deck abaft the stack."

Or go here:
http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/ships/ships-dd.html
and scroll down to "Gridley Class" and you can see a simplified layout drawing.

Against a maneuvering target, or before the USN implemented field fixes for the Mk15, 15 out of 32 would be ASB. Against a damaged, non-maneuvering target at fairly close range (possible because the IJN BB's are rather distracted by the 16" shells still landing on and around them) an upgraded Mk15 having a 50% hit chance seems perfectly reasonable to me.

Edit: also, look here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:USSGridleyDD380.jpg
You can see the portside mounts just aft of the boat davits.
And here are the starboard side mounts:
http://www.navsource.org/archives/05/0538004.jpg
 
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usertron2020

Donor
MUC said:
I did. You simply have the Japanese light units die quite soon, which is IMHO as well kind of a US-wank. The problem is this whole TL has turned a bit into a US-wank.
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Considering how the USN has been about as bitch slapped as it possibly could be up to this point, you seem to be arguing that OTL is an ASB TL.:rolleyes: Midway was a surprise victory, true, with all the odds against it. But if in another time line the USN lost at Midway, badly, and someone had written a "What if the US won at Midway?" TL, he'd be buried under cries of "ASB!"

There are posters in the pre-1900 forum so Confederate in their sympathies that they give the impression that victory for the Union represented a major historical upset.

A "wank" suggests an easy and relatively cost-free brutalizing of the enemy. A nearly gladiatorial blood match in which one opponent lies dead and the other all but maimed is hardly a "wank".
 
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Sir Chaos

Banned
usertron2020 said:
Considering how the USN has been about as bitch slapped as it possibly could up to this point, you seem to be arguing that OTL is an ASB TL.:rolleyes: Midway was a surprise victory, true, with all the odds against it. But if another time line the USN lost at Midway, badly, and someone had written a "What if the US won at Midway?" TL, he'd be buried under cries of "ASB!"
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At the very least, if he presented the OTL battle as a TL, he´d be accused to intentionally messing up the Japanese plans and actions (in TropeSpeak: he made them carry the Idiot Ball) to give the US a totally unrealistic chance to win.
 

Sir Chaos

Banned
MUC said:
I did. You simply have the Japanese light units die quite soon, which is IMHO as well kind of a US-wank. The problem is this whole TL has turned a bit into a US-wank.
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Dude, the US has at least twice as many cruiser guns (US CLs had 12 or 15 eaxh, IJN CLs 6 or 7 each), and four times as many destroyers as the Japanese in this battle. In daytime, without the advantage of superior night ops training and the chance to launch a suprise torpedo strike as the opening move, the Japanese are screwed.

Gridley could perhaps have drawn the screening force battle out a little longer, but the results are realistic.
 

usertron2020

Donor
Gridley said:
Some CVEs with well under their design load of aircraft, a crippled pilot training program, a bunch of DDs and smaller escorts, a few cruisers (mostly slow, elderly, or both), and some submarines. They have a worthy task force worth of ships in various stages of construction, but manning and equipping them would be difficult even in peacetime.

As a naval power, they're done.
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Actually, it looks like a respectable navy. For Argentina.
 

Tyg

MerryPrankster said:
Of course, now Japan has no real navy left.

Now what?
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At this point, why bother puttering around in the Marshals and Carolines instead of lunging for the jugular, and taking the Marianas? All the better to complete Japan's isolation and submarine blockade, as well as providing proper platforms for round the clock bombing.

Is there anything that OTL US planners wanted to do, but were reluctant or unwilling to do before the IJN was still a potential threat?
 

Gridley

Kurt_Steiner said:
I doubt that the Japanese Empire will have enough planes for the incoming kamikaze season...
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Actually, most Japanese aircraft production was late in the war - they produced more planes in 1944 than in 1943 and 1942 combined. Despite the pounding they took late in the war, they produced more planes in the eight months of 1945 before the surrender than in all of 1941 and almost as many as in all of 1942! They'll have plenty of planes. Pilots, OTOH...

Tyg said:
At this point, why bother puttering around in the Marshals and Carolines instead of lunging for the jugular, and taking the Marianas? All the better to complete Japan's isolation and submarine blockade, as well as providing proper platforms for round the clock bombing.
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With the equipment (ships, planes, etc.) the US had in WWII it wasn't really any easier to make one big hop than two short ones; lots of small landing ships and large landing craft (LCI's and LCT's, for example) could make a short hop but not a long one. A short hop allows more land-based air support, etc.

This isn't to say they won't make big jumps, but jumping straight from Kwajalein to Okinawa, for example, wouldn't be a good idea.

Sir Chaos said:
Dude, the US has at least twice as many cruiser guns (US CLs had 12 or 15 eaxh, IJN CLs 6 or 7 each), and four times as many destroyers as the Japanese in this battle. In daytime, without the advantage of superior night ops training and the chance to launch a suprise torpedo strike as the opening move, the Japanese are screwed.

Gridley could perhaps have drawn the screening force battle out a little longer, but the results are realistic.
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The US also has air superiority and none of its ships are damaged, while many of the Japanese ships are damaged. The US force is centered on modern Baltimore and Cleveland class cruisers vs. older and much more varied IJN cruisers. The US destroyers are in formed divisions and in most cases squadrons and are dominated by the brand-new Fletchers, while most of the IJN destroyers are orphans of various pre-war classes.

I could have played the battle out a little more, in fact I probably should have, but I wanted to get to the main event. :-}
 

Panzerfaust 150

Banned
Gridley said:
I could have played the battle out a little more, in fact I probably should have, but I wanted to get to the main event. :-}
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I do wonder what Gridley considers the main event, considering we just saw the clash of the titans just now and the Japanese Navy get squished like a bug on a windshield. What's going to top that?:D
 

Gridley

Panzerfaust 150 said:
I do wonder what Gridley considers the main event, considering we just saw the clash of the titans just now and the Japanese Navy get squished like a bug on a windshield. What's going to top that?:D
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The crew of the USS Alabama don't feel very windshieldy. Neither does the bridge crew of the USS South Dakota.

I guess I didn't make the BB action feel nearly as epic as I wanted it to. :-(
 

Gridley

Aftermath

Admiral Halsey was publically hailed as a hero, but his seniors felt he was too reckless. He was decorated, promoted, and then quietly transferred to a shore post. Admiral Spruance was also recognized for his role in the battle, and succeeded Halsey as the Navy’s senior forward commander.

The destruction of the IJN gave the US great freedom in pursuing its future campaigns. The old battleships were dispatched to the Atlantic, where in July they helped shoot ashore the massive amphibious assault on Normandy. Throughout the fall and winter of 1944 the US along with the rest of the Allies rolled forward in both the Pacific and Europe.

Germany surrendered on June 20th, 1945, as Soviet and Canadian forces reached Berlin.

By the summer of 1945, Japan was starving inside a virtual blockade of submarines and aircraft. Only desperate attacks by the infamous Kamikazes and other suicide troops seemed able to even slow the US advance, and nothing could stop it. In August, the world’s first atomic bombs were dropped on Hiroshima and Kokura, the final act in a strategic bombing campaign that had gutted Japan’s cities. Japan formally signed an unconditional surrender on September 1st, 1945.

The Second World War was over.

USS Lexington had served in almost every major engagement of the war and countless minors ones. Her aircraft had often played a key role in those battles. The ship herself was called the “Lady Lex” “Lucky Lex” and “Lady Luck” by her crew for the numerous times she had escaped damage, and in recognition of the fact that she was the only pre-war US carrier to survive the war. She remains the most decorated ship ever to serve in the US Navy. She was decommissioned in 1947 and became a museum ship in New York. Her name lived on – the USN’s first atomic-powered aircraft carrier was named the USS Lexington, and in the 1960’s a popular TV series features a space ship with the same name. While the series only ran for three years, spin offs, sequels, and movies made it into one of the largest TV franchises in history.

The Japanese had their own-mega franchise, which began in the 1970’s with an anime show about using a raised and rebuilt Yamato as a space ship. Sequels would eventually bring Shinano and even Musashi (after lengthy reassembly) into space as well.

The six Iowa-class battleships were retained after the war, though all were cycled through the reserve fleet in mothballs at some point. Still, there were always at least two in service up until the end of the 1980s, when they were finally replaced by the new Montana-class battleships. At least one Iowa-class participated in every conflict the US was involved in from WWII until their retirement.

THE END
 

Gridley

Final Index

Post #1: Prologue
Post #7: Pearl Harbor
Post #41: Wake
Post #86: The Philippines
Post #90: Malaya
Post #108: Dutch East Indies
Post #115: Doolittle
Post #125: Coral Sea, Part I
Post #134: Coral Sea, Part II
Post #140: Coral Sea, Part III
Post #148: Diversions and Raids
Post #154: Midway, Part I
Post #164: Midway, Part II
Post #165: Midway, Part III
Post #202: Midway, Part IV
Post #214: Midway, Part V
Post #253: Midway, Part VI
Post #256: Midway, Part VII
Post #285: Pacific: adj., peaceful, calm…
Post #292: The Gilberts Campaign, Part I
Post #299: The Gilberts Campaign, Part II
Post #308: The Solomons Campaign, Part I
Post #314: The Solomons Campaign, Part II
Post #323: The Solomons Campaign, Part III
Post #328: The Solomons Campaign, Part IV
Post #330: The Solomons Campaign, Part V
Post #333: The Solomons Campaign, Part VI
Post #334: The Solomons Campaign, Part VII
Post #341: The Solomons Campaign, Part VIII
Post #354: Bougainville
Post #376: The Silent Service
Post #379: The Marshals Campaign, Part I
Post #388: The Marshals Campaign, Part II
Post #418: The Marshals Campaign, Part III
Post #430: The Marshals Campaign, Part IV
Post #452: The Marshals Campaign, Part V
Post #462: The Last Command
Post #474: The Death of a Navy
Post #494: Aftermath
 

Gridley

Gangster said:
Sorry to see this end, what will you do for an encore!

Great work superior research on a fine story
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I've got two irons in the fire; one is in the research stage here:
https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=187209

The second (less likely) is an alternate Pearl Harbor where Kimmel is never sent the message authorizing the reinforcement of Wake and Midway; this results in one carrier being in Pearl and another nearby. The big difference from the December 28th TL would be this time I'd actually game it out (using War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition most likely).
There's a (inactive) discussion thread for this one too:
https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=181689

Kurt_Steiner said:
Over so soon? Oh.

Anyway, it has been a superb reading.
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Thank you.

I'll continue to watch this thread for questions or to respond to suggestions about future work, though if you have a specific comment on one of the two TL's above please post it in those threads.

Thanks to everyone who has read and commented! I've learned a lot here that will be helpful for my next project. 22,000 words isn't the longest thing I've written for the web, much less in general, but this is the most feedback I've gotten on something I wrote.
 
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