744; The Alids, A Better Caliphate

[wakobear]

In mid 744, after the assassination of Walid ii, at the site of the prophet's mother's grave (alAbwa), the majority of Banu Hashim, including the Abbasids: Ibrahim al imam, Saffah and AlMansur, all pledged fealty to Muhammad ibn Abdullah anNafs azZakiyyah.


The Abbasids won the loyalty of Khurasan and Kufa by using the Alid call, but betrayed the Alids by appointing Saffah.
Leading to major Alid revolts throughout the Abbasid Caliphate, who were their main existential threat .
Starting with that of Muhammad Nafs Zakiyyah, and his brother Ibrahim in 762. Then the Alid revolts in Mamun's reign.
In the 10th century Alids were everywhere: Fatimids, Qaramita, Buyids, Hamdanids etc. At times coming close to extinguishing the Caliphate.







ITTL, the Alids gain the Caliphate.
Preventing the Alid revolts, as well as the Sunni-Shia split.

Abdullah alKamil/alMahd, Muhammad Nafs Zakiyyah's father, would play a far more active role, in ensuring the Caliphate of his son.

He was named Nafs Zakiyyah, due to his father spreading the idea that he was the Mahdi, as he did conform to many of the signs: his name Muhammad ibn Abdullah, being a descendant of alHassan and the Umayyad civil war.
(This should make the general populace more loyal, since he was a sort of chosen one)


Beyond that, Abdullah al Kamil had the greatest lineage in the world at the time. Being the first person to combine lineages of both Hassan and Hussain; Father: Hassan ibn Hassan, Mother: Fatima bint Hussain.
He also grew up in the household of Zayn al Abideen - the 4th unanimous Imam of all Shi'ites.
Though he disagreed with Zaydi revolt, due to mistrust of the Kufans.


The only one who could potentially rival his lineage is perhaps his cousin Jafar as-Sadiq.
Who had paternal lineage of Hussain, which could potentially be stronger than that of Hassan. But given the movements around Ibn al Hanafiyyah or Abdullah ibn Muawiyah, this shouldn't matter too much.
Maternally, he was also a double great grandson of Abu Bakr, giving him support from them.
But he was quietist.



Beyond that, he is the Brother-in-law of Umayyad Caliph Walid I. Via his sister Zaynab bint Hassan Muthanna.
I'm unsure if this produced any children.
But overall, the children of Walid felt sidelined by Marwan ii. alKamil could use this.

Before marrying Walid, alKamil's sister was married to Muawiyah ibn Marwan, and gave birth to Walid.
Meaning Walid ibn Muawiyah ibn Marwan's maternal uncle is alKamil.

Given that Walid bin Muawiyah was the Governor Of Damascus during the last days of the Umayyads this is incredibly useful.

Some of this was covered in https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...e-during-the-third-fitna.530028/post-23286403





So, after alAbwa, Abdullah alKamil secretly meets with Abu Muslim al Khurasani, gaining his loyalty, so that he spreads the movement of Muhammad Nafs Zakiyyah throughout Khurasan instead of that of the Abbasids.

The Maghreb:​

Not putting all eggs in one basket, he would also send his eldest son, Ibrahim, to the Maghreb.
Creating a similar state to that of the Idrisids, which his younger brother (only 1 yr old at the time) would go on to make OTL in the 780s

The central and western Maghreb (Algeria and Morocco) had already ousted the Umayyads during the Great Berber revolt of 740-742.
However, they failed in taking Qayrawan, the Umayyad capital of the Maghreb.
And subsequently split up creating Emirates throughout Algeria and Morocco. With the Berghawata and Abu Qurra at Tlemcen being the most dominant

But they were still formidable, if they could be united, since OTL after Abdurahman alFihri's death in 755, the Berbers took Qayrawan and Tripolitania. It took a huge Abbasid force of 40,000 Khurasani under renown general Muhammad ibn alAshath that Caliphal and Arab rule was restored in Ifriqiyah. But again in 771, a coalition of the Berbers, including the new Rustamids of Tahert, managed to take Qayrawan. Ousting the Caliphate from the west. Finally Mansur sent one of his closest generals, Yazid ibn Hatim with a whopping 60,000 men, the largest force ever sent west, who restored peace to the western Maghreb. Though after his death there were troubles until the Aghlabids emerged.


Ibrahim would arrive in mid-late 744 and spread the movement of Muhammad Nafs Zakiyyah.
(The Berber revolt was dominated by Sufri Kharijite ideology, who are officially Anti Ali, but this didn't stop the Idrisids...)

Focusing his efforts initially with the Berghawata of western Morocco. They were founded by Tarif alMatghari, who seems to have been an orthodox Muslim. Unlike his sons Salih, who declared his own prophethood and revelation after his death in 744.

Ibrahim would challenge Salih, his direct descendance from the prophet allowing him to gain much more support. Defeating Salih and gaining the entire Berghawata kingdom by the end of 744.

Thereafter, founding the capital at the central port city of Rabat or Casablanca. And building ports throughout the Moroccan coastline. Starting to build up a significant navy.
 

Spreading the Alid call and using the Berghawata army and navy to unify the disparate Berber tribes.

Defeating or winning over, Abu Qurra of Tlemcen in mid 745.
Rebuilding Oran followed by Algiers towards the end of the year. Their ports further increasing Ibrahim's navy.

Throughout 746, campaigning further inland against remaining Berber tribes.
By the end of the year, unifying all of them.
While the navy would've pushed to Annaba, leaving only Ifriqiyah.


So the march on Qayrawan would begin.
At this time, Marwan would hear of a new Great Berber revolt, but the third fitnah would prevent any eastern reinforcements.

The port of Tunis would be taken in early 747. Then Souse, the port of Qayrawan in March.
Moving onto Qayrawan, the regional capital, in the hands of Abdurahman alFihri who was disliked and faced constant revolts, by both Arabs and Berbers.

Using the Chaos of Ifriqiyah, the lack of Eastern support, the naval supremacy.
And Ibrahim's role as leader of the revolt, would prevent the revolt being seen as solely Berber/Anti Arab, unlike the 740 revolt.
So Arabs wouldn't fight to the death, in fear of Berber reprisals.

And so, Ibrahim's Berber revolt would succeed and Qayrawan would fall in August 747.
A few months after Abu Muslim declares his revolt.

From there consolidating.
Establishing the overall capital of the Maghreb at the central city of Algiers, able to extend equal influence to Morocco and Tunisia.
Tempering Berber-Arab conflicts. Developing agriculture in the neglected western and central Maghreb.
Promoting state backed Trans-Saharan Gold trade

and further building up the navy.
Taking the Macaronesian islands in the west, the semi Andalusi/Byzantine Balerics to the north, and Malta.

As well as a few strategic ports of Andalus, which was in civil war, and didn't have much of a navy at all.
Using them to spread Alid propaganda throughout the peninsula, and spread the seeds of an Andalusi Berber revolt. However, biding their time for now.

Egypt:​

Meanwhile the east would go exactly as OTL, In February 748, Abu Muslim would take Marw.
Drawing Umayyad attentions east. Allowing Ibrahim to move on Egypt.
Given that Egypt was so close to Syria, it would be incredibly difficult to take without Umayyad attentions on Khurasan.


While Abdullah alKamil would be trying to convince his nephew Walid ibn Muawiyah, governor to Damascus, to side with him against Marwan, as well as the sidelined sons of his brother-in-law Walid i.


With Marwan focused on the east, Ibrahim would arrive with the Navy at Alexandria in late April, taking the city relatively quickly.
Moving on Fustat, a month later.

The Umayyads would need time to prepare an army. And alKamil's correspondence with Walid ibn Muawiyah making this process even slower.

But towards the end of 748, a large Umayyad army would be sent perhaps as large as 50,000.

Ibrahim would've used the months between to fortify Egypt, and bring in tens of thousands more Berber troops from the Maghreb.
While his navy would take the port of Gaza. Using it to disrupt Umayyad supply lines through the Sinai. With a great portion of the army dying in the desert.
Finally defeating them in an open battle close on the Egypt-Sinai border.

Syria:​

Due to now being assailed on 2 fronts, the Khurasani would make much quicker progress. With Isfahan falling in mid 748, followed by Nahavand a few weeks later.

With that, Muhammad Nafs Zakiyyah would personally travel to Isfahan, taking direct command of the eastern Armies.
Entering Kufa in December 748, declaring his Caliphate.


With Southern Iraq and Egypt, alKamil would personally travel to Damascus, under his nephew, convincing him that Marwan's cause was lost and to side with him.



Meanwhile, the conquest of Alexandria, would greatly weaken the Umayyad navy. Allowing the Berber navy to take Acre and Tyre the Levantine naval capitals by the end of 748.

Ending the Umayyad Navy, giving Ibrahim free reign over the seas.
Providing beachheads and supply lines for the Syrian invasion.

Which would begin in early 749, taking all Palestine, Jordan, Lebanon, Antioch using the navy.
Closing in on Damascus, seeing this, teh city's governor Walid ibn Muawiyah would surrender to his uncle alKamil in mid 749.

Meanwhile, the Khurasani would march north from Kufa, towards Harran, Marwan's Capital.
Resulting in am equivalent of battle of Zab in mid 749.
Except, due to Umayyad manpower shortages due to 2 fronts, it's even more decisive, with Marwan being slain in battle.


By that, the Umayyad Caliphate is over. Replaced by the Caliphate of Muhammad Nafs Zakiyyah.

But the armies wouldn't be disbanded immediately, marching to the Byzantine frontier, to push back their incursions into Germanicea, Malatya and Armenia.
Founding Tarsus as the Muslim capital of the frontier 40 years earlier than OTL.
Putting the Byzantines on the defensive once more. Which for some reason the OTL Abbasids didn't accomplish until 782....

The huge Maghrebi naval build up of Ibrahim differs from the Abbasid neglect of the sea, which allowed the 853 sack of Damietta.
Instead most of the Mediterranean would be dominated by Berber fleets. With the Byzantines on the defensive, as in Umayyad times.




Due to Abdullah alKamil's familial ties to the Umayyads, the Abbasid massacres wouldn't occur. With many sons of Walid I, being incorporated into the state. And Walid ibn Muawiyah retaining his governance of Damascus.

Preventing the Syrian uprisings the Abbasids had to deal with.
Though all other Umayyads would be deported to regions where they had no influence, and Alid influence was strongest, such as Khurasan, Iraq and the Maghreb.










The only remaining regions are independent Andalus and semi independent Sindh.

Andalus:​

Andalus and Ifriqiyah were predominantly Yaman tribes But Balj ibn Bishr brought foreign Syrian Qays tribes into Andalus sparking a civil war.

Thus, after taking Damascus, Ibrahim and a sizeable chunk of the Berber army. Plus some Khurasanis and Asawira, familiar with different styles of warfare like horse archery.
But the navy would be the most important aspect of the Andalusi campaign.

The berbers would've already been anxious to revolt, seeing their Maghrebi brethren doing so with so much efficacy. Way back in 747.
But Ibrahim would've sent a few agents to make them bide their time, till the moment is right. Infiltrating strategic locations and various factions.

So when Ibrahim crosses over in early 750, Thousands berbers throughout all Iberia would simultaneously revolt.
While the navy takes the undefended coasts with ease, from Porto to Narbonne. Since Andalus only made a navy in 844.
Finally, Ibrahim's army would be large at 23,000 dwarfing the much smaller divided Andalusi armies.

All this would allow a very quick conquest (much faster than Abdurahman i).

Seville being taken a few weeks after crossing the straits, since the navy would go up the Guadalquivir. With Seville, the capital, Cordoba would be vulnerable, falling a few weeks after.

But, even with the capital, most cities were under independent warlords who need conquering.

So, from Cordoba marching to Toledo, a central, strategically located and naturally fortified city.
Establishing it as the capital for these reasons.

Zaragoza being the most important city after this, falling in mid 750. Allowing Ibrahim to send reinforcements to Narbonne, to prevent Peppin from taking the city.

While to the northwest, Alfonso i had used the chaos of Andalus to take Galicia.
So the army would march to Lugo, while the navy takes the entirety of the Galician coast.
Then the navy would take the Asturias coast, most importantly Gijon.
The army of Lugo would march along the Asturias coast, supported by the navy, to Gijon, since the Cantabrian mountains are too difficult to attempt to traverse directly.
 
Taking the important city of Oviedo, nearby to Gijon. Then moving on Alfonso's capital of Cangas de Onis, with help from the navy at Ribadesella.
Ending the kingdom of Asturias.

A large portion of the population of Galicia, Asturias and upper Iberia in general would be deported to the Maghreb
Where they would provide Jizya, which the already Muslim Berbers could not. Similar to alMoravid policies.
Being surrounded by Muslims, they are more likely to become Muslim and assimilate.

While northern Iberia would be settled by Berbers, starting cultivation of the Douro valley.



By that, all Iberia would be unified by late 750.
Gijon would have one of the largest garrisons on the peninsula, to control the Cantabrians, and also to raid the shores of western Europe.


With that, focus can be shifted to Septimania.
The army and navy assisting reconquering the region, as well as pushing into Provence.
With Marseille becoming the capital, rebuilding it after Charles sack in 737.

Sindh:​

Meanwhile, in the far East of the Caliphate, a large portion of the Khurasani army would march east towards Sindh.
The province had been a mess more or less since it's inception.
It did have occasional good governors, like Muhammad alQasim, Junayd alMurri and alHakam ibn Awana. The first 2 bringing in a total of 1 Billion dirhams of loot from their Indian campaigns.
But between them were weak and ineffectual leaders, along with tribal infighting and external threats.

In 746, Mansur ibn Jamhur Kalbi took the province. A fanatical Yamani, he had had an interesting career before this; plotting to kill Walid ii, becoming governor of Iraq, then joining the Khawarij.
Before finally taking Sindh.

Alid propaganda would've seeped into the region from nearby Khurasan.
And some portions of the Khurasani army would make an unsuccessful initial forays in late 748, testing the waters of the province.


With all else completed, full Caliphal attention would be placed on the province.

Since Mansur was a vehement Yamani, the Abbasids would use the recently defeated Qaysi of Marwan ii. Particularly Abu al Ward, a Qaysi Champion and one of Marwan's best commanders. This would prevent his Syrian revolt.


So, up to 35,000 troops would be sent to Sindh. 7,500 of whom being Qaysi under Abu alWard.
Aided by the Indian Ocean navies.

Taking Daybul, the second capital of Sindh quite easily.
From there, marching upriver to the capital at Mansurah. Taking the city in mid 750

Followed by Multan a few weeks later.
Building a newly built overall capital at the Indus-Panjnad confluence, a little west of Alexander's capital at Uch.



Then continuing
Since this would be the largest Arab army ever sent to India. Continuing into Punjab, as done by Muhammad alQasim Junayd alMurri and alHakam ibn Awana.
Lahore would be taken in late 750, becoming the northern capital.
From here, the dominant force of northern India was Lalitâditya of Kashmir, Who would prove an obstacle to further expansion.



By this, the Muslim world is united under the Alids.

Consolidation:​

Unlike the Abbasids, Ibrahim and Muhammad would've personally led the Berber and Khurasani armies.
Making them loyal to them.



2 cities would be founded.
Raqqa/Barbalisos as western and overall Capital, and Baghdad as Eastern.
Being dominated by Berber and Khurasani respectively. As well as Roman and Persian Cultures respectively.
Baghdad being more commercial, while Barbalisos is more military focused due to proximity to the frontier.

Abdullah alKamil staying in Barbalisos, to prevent Umayyad uprisings, while Muhammad would move between the two regularly.
While Ibrahim stays in the west, predominantly at the central city of Algiers but moving to Toledo evey few years. And to a lesser extent Casablanca and Qayrawan.




Due to ruling over all Muslims, revolutionary/extreme Shi'ism would be toned down significantly. Since what the Shia have called for has been achieved.

Jafar as-Sadiq would be the Chief Judge, since he taught both Abu Hanifa and Imam Malik, unifying the Muslims
This would make Husainid and Hassanid branches closer.

Ideally Abu Jafar alMansur could be a vizier, since he was a talented statesman.
But keeping him loyal might be difficult. Though he wouldn't have any armies loyal to him.



Ibrahim and Muhammad would marry the children of their Umayyad Uncle: Walid ibn Muawiyah ibn Marwan. As well as other Umayyads. Strengthening their powerbase, and the powerbase of the entire Alid Caliphate.



While beyond that, every single province of the Caliphate would house at least one Hashimid. Though still being slightly hesitant on the Abbasid branch, until alMansur's death.

Creating Hashimid loyalties in every province. Resulting in greater loyalty to the Caliphate.




Then developing the Caliphate.

Draining the marshes of the Sawad, which engulfed nearly half of it in the 629 deluge.
By building a dam/barrage at the southern/Kut branch of the Tigris, to redirect it into its pre deluge easterly course. Denying a great source of water to the marshes.
With a smaller barrage on the Euphrates near Kufa.
With both sources cut off, thousands of water, wind and animal pumps would be built to drain all the water in the marshes.
Doubling the agricultural land of the Sawad. Thereby doubling it's revenue to almost 300 million dirhams annually.



Then neglected Sindh and Punjab would be massively developed, receiving more irrigational works than any other region.

Rebuilding the irrigation canals destroyed by the shifting of the Indus in 700.
And Building British Raj style Indus Barrages.
Bringing tens of millions of acres into cultivation. Encouraging mass immigration.

And making it the richest province in the Caliphate, by far.

Other than that, improving the road networks, and Navigability of rivers: Tigris, Euphrates, Nile, Indus, Karun, Guadalquivir, Aras, Orontes, Ebro, even Oxus.



A strong unified Caliphate would be able to go on the offensive once more.
Predominantly in the Mediterranean and India.

Using the Maghrebi and Andalusi navy to take Sardinia and Sicily. Then pushing into southern Italy.
While in the east, taking Crete would allow raids in the Aegean, and alliances with the still pagan southern Slavs and Bulgars of the Balkans.

In the Atlantic, the entire western French coast could probably be taken quite easily, due to a lack of a Carolingian navy.
While the divided British isles would also be quite easy too, given the small size of the great heathen army, only a few thousand men should be needed.
The Navigability of the Rhone and Garrone rivers, would allow domination of most of southern France.


While in India, after 760, Lalitâditya and Nagabhata I die. Leaving a power vacuum throughout the entire Gangetic plain down to Bengal.
And leaving the Gurjaras with a weaker ruler. Allowing great conquests throughout northern India.

While during the An Lushan Rebellion, a larger army than what alMansur sent OTL, army could be sent to assist the Tang in defeating the rebels and Tibetans,
To spread the Caliphate's influence into the Tang court, and throughout China more generally.




Overall, the absence of the Sunni-Shia split would make the Muslim world more unified. And the Alids wouldn't have any serious external challenges to the Caliphate.
And the strong loyalties of the Berbers and Khurasani to the Alids, would remove the need for unloyal slave armies, which caused the anarchy at Samarra.

Their only threat, are themselves and succession crisises. Unless a more orderly succession plan can be developed....

 

[Nivek]

Amazing start buddy but

the Mahdi

i doubt they would make that, Mahdi is very specific thing after all

 

[Ursogulos]

Good start, though draining the southern iraqi marshes wouldn’t be possible until 18th century.

 

[wakobear]

Good start, though draining the southern iraqi marshes wouldn’t be possible until 18th century.

I'm not referring to the total draining of the marshes. But instead to reduce them to their pre 629, or post Mongol extent.

In 629, there was a huge flood, in which the Tigris shifted it's course from the modern eastern course, to the Southern/Gharraf branch, which caused almost half of southern Iraq to be covered in marshlands.
Everything between of Kufa, Wasit and Basra became marshlands. While the eastern branch became a desert and wasteland.
As shown in:

The marshes and eastern desertification is region of almost 5 million acres.
Millions of some of the most fertile farmland in the fertile crescent becoming unusable.



But over time, it returned to its eastern and present course, which occured in the Mongol period.
Which denied the Kufan marshes most of its water, reducing them to below Nasiriyyah.
And the return to the eastern course ended the regions desertification, and brought about marshes there also.

As shown in this image of the marshes in the early ottoman period.

Building a dam at Kut is very feasible, and may have been attempted by individual farmers soon after the 629 deluge as mentioned in https://aladabj.uobaghdad.edu.iq/index.php/aladabjournal/article/view/1810 .
Though i can't find anything which mentions a state attempt at this.




So the point isn't to entirely drain all the marshes, but rather to force the river back to its 629 course.
Greatly reducing the amount of water in the Gharraf canal, thereby greatly reducing water intake of the marshes. Allowing animal, water and wind pumps to pump out the remaining water.
Whilst also bringing the region of the eastern/current course back into cultivation.

Which I think is quite possible.

Overall potentially bringing millions of fertile acres back into cultivation, as was the case in pre 629.

 

[wakobear]

Amazing start buddy but



i doubt they would make that, Mahdi is very specific thing after all

OTL His title was Muhammad anNafs azZakiyyah. Which literally means "The Pure Soul", one of the titles of the Mahdi at the time.
And in 744 OTL, Abdullah alKamil made Banu Hashim declare loyalty to Muhammad, as the Mahdi.



So ITTL, if he actually becomes Caliph, many more people would likely accept his Mahdi status. Which would generally mean people are far less likely to revolt, and be more obedient.

 

[Nivek]

Overall potentially bringing millions of fertile acres back into cultivation, as was the case in pre 629.

That will be a massive boom for the region

 

[Valyrianemperor]

Interesting, is this going to be this format or are you going to branch into general story aspects and slower pacing to show us general caliphate life and its development?

 

[wakobear]

Interesting, is this going to be this format or are you going to branch into general story aspects and slower pacing to show us general caliphate life and its development?

Well, I was more making this a one off.

Exploring how the Alids could take control over the revolution.
And fixing some flaws of the Abbasid revolution: Having a strong navy, a second Berber powerbase besides the Khurasani, Taking Andalus, putting the Byzantines on defensive 4 decades earlier, and preventing Syrian revolts by not massacring the Umayyads, due to their familial ties with them.

And i usually don't like straying too many decades from PoD, or else there's not enough of OTL history to draw from. Getting too hypothetical and speculative for my liking.....





But there is much that could be explored.
Such as the significantly weaker Persianisation of the Caliphate as a whole, due to the Berbers controlling everything west of Raqqa.

With stronger control over Ifriqiyah and conquest of Iberia and later Sicily and Southern France, enabling a large Latin influence. The wealthy and bibliophilic Caliphate should be able to much better preserve these texts than the monks of scattered monasteries.

Though, ITTL, these regions would be in the same empire as Persia, so would receive more Persian influence than OTL. Particularly through Persian Qanat builders being moved to the region in great numbers to improve the Agriculture of the region.


Even in the east, the Persian monopoly would be upended due to tens of millions of Indians entering into the state from the conquest of the Gangetic, doubling the empire's population. Probably making Hinduism (or perhaps Buddhism?) Overtake Christianity as the largest religion of the empire.

The centre of the east would shift away from Khurasan and more towards Kannauj, due to the unfathomable riches of India, which would be far richer than the rest of the Caliphate combined.

This would enable faster adoption of Hindu numerals, with Brahmagupta being translated decades before Khwarezmi is born. As well as other aspects of Indian culture, philosophy and sciences.



Finally, taking more advantage of the An Lushan Rebellion would result in greater Chinese influence in the empire.
The only state which could rival the Caliphate, though after the devastation of An Lushan and the Alid conquest of the Gangetic, the Caliphate would surpass the Tang.
OTL, Chinese philosophy, culture and world view didn't directly interact very much with the early Caliphate.
So it would be fascinating to explore how that would work out. Ideally with Alberuni's India style works written on the myriad cultures of China.
Most importantly, ideally more interaction with China, would allow the upper classes of Islamic society to see the benefits of the Tarsh blockprint. Instead of it being peculiarly relagated to the criminal underground.









Beyond that, Charlemagne wouldn't be facing the weak, small and divided Andalus of OTL. Rather he would be against the Caliphate, which would rule the majority of the Mediterranean, and be able to call upon tens of thousands of reinforcements from the Maghreb.
A Caliphal alliances with the Saxons, Avars and Lombards could result in the carving up of the entirety of the Frankish empire.
Forever changing western Europe...

In the extremely disunited British isles, a few hundred adventures from Gijon would use their navy to establish viking-esque ports and occupation of the isles. A few decades later coming face to face with the Vikings themselves in contests for domination of the North Atlantic.


Against the Byzantines, the Alids would take a much more gradual approach than the Abbasids or Umayyads.
Slowly annexing fortress by fortress deeper into Anatolia. Not something like 838 Amorion, which is too far from Abbasid supply lines to be maintained. Starting with Kayseri, using it to conquer the rest of the Central Anatolian plateau/steppe over a few decades, then pushing into the Ionian region, followed by Bithynia. Allowing the land push into Thrace.

Meanwhile, the navy would be far more aggressive. Shortly after the revolution, taking Crete, with help from the Maghrebi navies.
Using its strategic position to ravage the Aegean coast. Eventually taking nearby Athens, using it to fund, arm, support and ideally convert the Pagan Slavic tribes of the Southern Balkans against the Byzantines.
With their help, taking Thessaloniki permanently. Fromwhich a strong alliance could be made with the Bulgars against the Byzantines, threatening Thrace together.
Finally the fall of Smyrna would result in the entire Aegean becoming a Muslim lake.

By the early-mid 800s, the Byzantines would be a mere city-state.





Caliphal control over the Maghreb, would result in a greater expansion of Trans-Saharan trade, due to the region being richer than individual polities.
Though the Atlantic navy of Morocco, Macaronesia and lesser extent Iberia, would probably supplant the Saharan route to west Africa, due to faster, easier and much more efficient travel by sea.

Potentially an AlMoravid style invasion of west Africa could occur 3 centuries earlier. Taking direct control over the gold fields, and the potentially very fertile and populous region.





In India, Lalitâditya's death in 760, would leave a large power vacuum in the whole of the Gangetic plain.
Thus the majority of the eastern Caliphates army would assemble at Lahore, and fairly easily take Kannauj, followed by Bengal, without much significant opposition.

With the Gangetic, Ujjain of the Gurjaras could then be taken. Then allowing the conquest of Gujarat, with help from the Indian Ocean navy.
Opening the route to the Deccan, where the Rashtrakutas were dominant.
But a few years of consolidation of the Gangetic would be required first.

Part of that consolidation would be the build up of the Indian navy. Particularly in Bengal, using it to dominate the Pandyas and Pallavas of southern India, who also had strong ties with SEA, with the Nandivarman II of the Pallavas being born in central Vietnam. And the Pallavas script forming the scripts of the Khmer and others.
By conquering them, the Caliphate would gain their influence over SEA, with Islam competing with the newly emerging Buddhism to replace Hinduism. 6 centuries earlier, and with state support.
Perhaps a Chola style invasion of Srivijaya in early 800s...
Strengthening the Islamic position in the region even further, and allowing further expansion into the China seas






Baghdad would be a microcosm of this vast empire, capital of the world.
Now able to support an even larger population, due to the reduction of the marshes, as well as Indian grain barges.
Perhaps reaching 2 million persons by the late 800s.
Housing populations from all across AfroEurasia, from Java to West Africa to British isles, creating an efflorescence never before seen in the history of the world.





All of this could be expanded upon in much greater detail, but I'm currently working on a lengthy Mamluk TL

 

[Nivek]

All of this could be expanded upon in much greater detail, but I'm currently working on a lengthy Mamluk TL

Interesting takes, especially on India

 

[Ismaʿil]

Finally! Abu Muslim is getting some well-deserved attention--a historical figure of great but underrated significance.

 

[wakobear]

Finally! Abu Muslim is getting some well-deserved attention--a historical figure of great but underrated significance.

Yes, although he's been somewhat sidelined in this TL.
Since the Khurasani aspect of the revolution is the same as OTL, so i didn't feel i need to explain that.
With more focus on how Ibrahim ibn Muhammad would restart the great Berber revolt.

Though it's doubtful if he would even side with Abdullah al Kamil to begin with, since he may have been a mawla (client or freed slave) of Ibrahim al imam of the Umayyads. And that OTL, he put down Alid revolts in Khurasan post revolution, he didn't seem to have a special affinity for the Alids.


So instead, I'm having Muhammad Nafs Zakiyyah personally hijacking the movement from Abu Muslim when he moves to Isfahan/Persia in mid 748.
Having the great grandson of both Hassan and Hussain leading you in battle, with rumors of him being theMahdi, would give almost complete loyalty of the Khurasani army to Muhammad.
- something which the Abbasids lacked.

Since Abu Muslim no longer commands the absolute loyalty of the Khurasani, and unlike OTL Abbasids, the Alids would have the Berbers to rival the Khurasani, his position would be much weaker.
Meaning he would be far more obedient to the central government. So he wouldnt be assassinated in his 30s like OTL.
And could be a governor of Khurasan for decades, though more probably, shifting him throughout provinces of the Caliphate, to prevent him building up a powerbase.

As governor of Khurasan, he would likely play a very important role in the assistance of the Tang dynasty against An Lushan and the Tibetans, and to a lesser extent in the conquests of northern India, gaining great wealth and fame through this.
His descendants would likely have significant political roles for many generations.

 

[wakobear]

The Tang-Alid Alliance ​

Ideally, a marriage would occur between Tang Emperor Daizong's daughter (probably Princess Qizhaoyi) to Muhammad Nafs azZakiyyah.



Due to the great Alid assistance in defeating the rebellion:
In 751, Talas would still happen, but more decisive, since more Khurasani are available, due to the massive Berber forces maintaining the western half of the Caliphate.
As well as greater integration of Umayyad armies due to Abdullah alKamil's familial ties with them.
And due to the revolution finishing a year earlier, allowing more troops to return to Khurasan in time for Talas.

Giving firm control over Fergana.
ITTL, due to the larger forces, Muslim influenced would be pushed into the Tarim Basin under the Tang western/Anxi protectorate.
Particularly the nearby Shule Kingdom at Kashgar. The kingdom shifting it's vassalage from the Tang to the Caliphate.
Using Kashgar to challenge Kucha - the most dominant of the 4 cities of Anxi - in the Tarim.

But after a few months, the Chinese would send an army to retake Kashgar. In mid 752.

From there the Alids would strengthen their position in Fergana, particularly Osh, the closest city to Kashgar.




In December 755, the An Lushan Rebellion would take place.
This resulted in recalling the garrisons of the Tang protectorates. Leaving the Tarim mostly defenseless.

Thus reasserting control over Kashgar in early 756. Then pushing to Khotan and Kucha, then Yanqi. By the middle of the year.
Finally pushing towards Dunhuang, the entry point of the Hexi corridor, perhaps pushing all the way to Wuwei, the last major city before the mountains of Lanzhou.

From there, the Muslims would recognise, that an intact Chinese empire would be better for trade than tens of warring states.
And so, would assist the Tang against the rebels, using this to gain influence in the court of the Tang.

Thus sending 30,000 troops to Chang'an, 10x what Mansur sent OTL. In early 757.
Ideally, playing a more important role that the Uyghurs in the retaking of Chang'an by Suzong in late 757.
The reward of which would be officially recognising Muslim suzerainty of the Tarim Basin. Perhaps with Dunhuang-Wuwei being a sort of condominium.
As well as a marriage alliance and Alid officials being given some, mostly ceremonial, positions in the imperial court.

Perhaps the Muslim presence could prevent the fall of Luoyang again in 759 to Shi Siming. This could potentially end the rebellion a few years earlier. But I don't know enough of Tang history to understand the effects of this.

Then, after the Yangzhou massacre in 760, a further 5,000-10,000 troops would be sent to avenge this, and would show the importance of a stable china.
Finally the revolt ending in early 763, as OTL.

The Muslims would also prevent the brief Tibetan conquest of Chang'an in 18 November 763.
Which would prevent the 2 weeks of pillaging and destruction of the city, which seems to have been much worse than An Lushan's occupation.
Allowing Chang'an to retain its magnificence.

Thus, the Caliphal forces would've played a large role, and would've campaigned side by side with Suzong and Daizong.





In the mid-late 760s, a massive joint campaign would be coordinated between the Tang and Caliphal India.
The Tang would attack first, from Sichuan and Qinghai.
With Tibetan attentions drawn to the north and east, a large Caliphal army would march from Bengal northwards, through the Himalayas, to the capital, Lhasa. This would be quite unexpected, and so the city would fall.
Upon hearing this, the Tibetans would attempt to rush back to retake their capital, at which, the Chinese would chase them into the Tibetan plateau.
Caught between the Muslims and Chinese, the Tibetan empire would end.
With Caliphal India annexing Lhasa, as well as the Western Tibetan plateau. While the Tang annex Qinghai and the eastern plateau, strengthening it's influence over Nanzhou.

This would be used to further increase the Alid presence in the Tang imperial court.

The Grand Wedding:​

This would be different to most forms of Heqin, since Princess Qizhaoyi/Shengping is the oldest daughter of the emperor and of Lady Cui of Boling of the powerful Cui clan. Usually, only minor branches of the imperial family were used for this.


So in 768, The Greatest Wedding In The History Of The World would take place.

Muhammad Nafs Zakiyyah, the great great great grandson of the prophet, and Caliph from the Atlantic to the Bay of Bengal, would marry the daughter of the Emperor of China, the only other entity which could compare to the Caliphate, though weakened after 7 years of rebellion.

The wedding would be a sight to behold, with enormous sums being spent from both sides.
The closest OTL comparison would be Qatr anNada's wedding in 900, between Tulunids and Abbasids, but this would be many times greater in opulence and grandeur, and about 6x longer.

The wedding procession start in Chang'an, perhaps with Muhammad personally travelling to the city, meeting Daizong.
From there, traversing the silk road, now safer with the Tibetans defeated, then through Transoxiana, Khurasan and Persia. Finally reaching Baghdad. Where weeks of celebration would it take place.
Introducing Chinese cuisine, clothing and customs to the Islamic world
Perhaps travelling to Egypt too, so the western regions don't feel entirely left out.




Princess Qizhaoyi living in Baghdad, would bring her courtiers, servants, entertainers, poets etc with her.
And probably some of her family, such as from her mother's side of the Cui clan of Boling, the most important family in the Tang dynasty, who produced 15 chancellors. However, many of their members were killed in the An Lushan Rebellion, weakening their power.

Perhaps even her brother, Prince Li Miao could move to Baghdad also....


Allowing the Alid administration to be greatly improved upon, by drawing on the Tang's administration and bureaucracy, the best on earth at the time.

Particularly the Three Departments and Six Ministries system.
3 departments: Central Secretariat, Chancellery, and Department of State Affairs. Which drafted, reviewed and implemented policy respectively.
With the Department of State Affairs being head of the 9 courts, 5 directorates and 6 ministries
The latter being most important, composing of: Personnel, Rites, War, Justice, Public Works, and Revenue ministries.

The Caliphate would also mimic the imperial civil service examinations to staff these new departments and ministries.
Though tested on Islamicate texts and sciences, instead of Confucian classics.
Later including texts translated from Greek, Persian, Latin, Sanskrit/Indian languages and Chinese, as the translation movement progresses.
To teach the content of these imperial examinations, schools would pop up everywhere. Somewhat like the Nizamiyyah system 400 years later.


Beyond that, Chinese style censuses, for better taxation. And more generally, a massive increase in record keeping of all types.
Finally, seeing the benefits of woodblock printing, to later enable government and higher class usage of the Tarsh.

Overall the greatly developed administration should allow more central control over the empire. Whilst also increasing the literarization of the Muslim world.

With the scholarly bureaucrats elite becoming more important than the military classes.



Other than that, stronger contact with the Chinese would allow quicker adoption of the blast furnace, improving Muslim iron and steel production.

As well as rudders for naval navigation, greater crossbow use, and other developments.


The Alid royal palace being styled upon the Daming palace, one of the largest palaces in human history, probably only second to Weiyang palace of the Han, which may still survive ITTL, due to the Tibetan pillaging of Chang'an not occuring.

A Chinese Caliph ​

Ideally, Muhammad would be succeeded by his child with Princess Qizhaoyi on his death at 70 in 789, making his son only 20.
This son would be fluent in both Chinese and Arabic. And would've even spent a few years in China under his half-uncle Emperor Dezong.

His reign would result in further sinicization of the Caliphate.

Though he would likely have some difficulties in controlling the west of the empire.
Ibrahim's Superprovince of the entire Maghreb, Iberia, Southern France, Southern Italy and somewhat Egypt, would've been split up on his death, in the late 760s/770s, into around a dozen provinces, preventing a rival power build up.

But after Muhammad Nafs azZakiyyah's death, tensions may flare up.
Especially as his Chinese son, might be seen as too eastern. To prevent this, he would need to be fluent in Berber, and would need loyalty of the navy.
But the east would be far more important, due to India.


He would use his Chinese lineage to increase Caliphal influence in China. Particularly by assisting the Cui clan of his grandmother.

While the Caliphate's Indian Ocean navy, would've established a strong position in the Austronesian island of Taiwan, dominating the western plains.
Using its strategic position to increase trade with China, and to a lesser extent Korea and Japan.
Soon muslims becoming a significant minority throughout the Chinese coast.
Increasing Caliphal influence even more...





Overall, Muslim influence in China would be significant, though conquest or a Muslim dynasty would probably be impossible.
Even if this TL's Tang dynasty does still collapse, a Caliphal vassal state could probably be established in Chang'an and Shaanxi. But by then, the heartland of China would've shifted more towards the south, making Chang'an less strategic and more difficult to control the empire from, making it unlikely to win a warring states period.


This influence would introduce Arab, Greek, Latin, Persian and Indian Sciences and advancements into China also. And to a lesser extent aspects of culture, architecture, cuisine, poetry, literature, clothing, music, history etc.
Making the entirety of AfroEurasia much more interconnected.

 

[Valyrianemperor]

Ideally, a marriage would occur between Tang Emperor Daizong's daughter (probably Princess Qizhaoyi) to Muhammad Nafs azZakiyyah.



Due to the great Alid assistance in defeating the rebellion:
In 751, Talas would still happen, but more decisive, since more Khurasani are available, due to the massive Berber forces maintaining the western half of the Caliphate.
As well as greater integration of Umayyad armies due to Abdullah alKamil's familial ties with them.
And due to the revolution finishing a year earlier, allowing more troops to return to Khurasan in time for Talas.

Giving firm control over Fergana.
ITTL, due to the larger forces, Muslim influenced would be pushed into the Tarim Basin under the Tang western/Anxi protectorate.
Particularly the nearby Shule Kingdom at Kashgar. The kingdom shifting it's vassalage from the Tang to the Caliphate.
Using Kashgar to challenge Kucha - the most dominant of the 4 cities of Anxi - in the Tarim.

But after a few months, the Chinese would send an army to retake Kashgar. In mid 752.

From there the Alids would strengthen their position in Fergana, particularly Osh, the closest city to Kashgar.




In December 755, the An Lushan Rebellion would take place.
This resulted in recalling the garrisons of the Tang protectorates. Leaving the Tarim mostly defenseless.

Thus reasserting control over Kashgar in early 756. Then pushing to Khotan and Kucha, then Yanqi. By the middle of the year.
Finally pushing towards Dunhuang, the entry point of the Hexi corridor, perhaps pushing all the way to Wuwei, the last major city before the mountains of Lanzhou.

From there, the Muslims would recognise, that an intact Chinese empire would be better for trade than tens of warring states.
And so, would assist the Tang against the rebels, using this to gain influence in the court of the Tang.

Thus sending 30,000 troops to Chang'an, 10x what Mansur sent OTL. In early 757.
Ideally, playing a more important role that the Uyghurs in the retaking of Chang'an by Suzong in late 757.
The reward of which would be officially recognising Muslim suzerainty of the Tarim Basin. Perhaps with Dunhuang-Wuwei being a sort of condominium.
As well as a marriage alliance and Alid officials being given some, mostly ceremonial, positions in the imperial court.

Perhaps the Muslim presence could prevent the fall of Luoyang again in 759 to Shi Siming. This could potentially end the rebellion a few years earlier. But I don't know enough of Tang history to understand the effects of this.

Then, after the Yangzhou massacre in 760, a further 5,000-10,000 troops would be sent to avenge this, and would show the importance of a stable china.
Finally the revolt ending in early 763, as OTL.

The Muslims would also prevent the brief Tibetan conquest of Chang'an in 18 November 763.
Which would prevent the 2 weeks of pillaging and destruction of the city, which seems to have been much worse than An Lushan's occupation.
Allowing Chang'an to retain its magnificence.

Thus, the Caliphal forces would've played a large role, and would've campaigned side by side with Suzong and Daizong.





In the mid-late 760s, a massive joint campaign would be coordinated between the Tang and Caliphal India.
The Tang would attack first, from Sichuan and Qinghai.
With Tibetan attentions drawn to the north and east, a large Caliphal army would march from Bengal northwards, through the Himalayas, to the capital, Lhasa. This would be quite unexpected, and so the city would fall.
Upon hearing this, the Tibetans would attempt to rush back to retake their capital, at which, the Chinese would chase them into the Tibetan plateau.
Caught between the Muslims and Chinese, the Tibetan empire would end.
With Caliphal India annexing Lhasa, as well as the Western Tibetan plateau. While the Tang annex Qinghai and the eastern plateau, strengthening it's influence over Nanzhou.

This would be used to further increase the Alid presence in the Tang imperial court.

The Grand Wedding:​

This would be different to most forms of Heqin, since Princess Qizhaoyi/Shengping is the oldest daughter of the emperor and of Lady Cui of Boling of the powerful Cui clan. Usually, only minor branches of the imperial family were used for this.


So in 768, The Greatest Wedding In The History Of The World would take place.

Muhammad Nafs Zakiyyah, the great great great grandson of the prophet, and Caliph from the Atlantic to the Bay of Bengal, would marry the daughter of the Emperor of China, the only other entity which could compare to the Caliphate, though weakened after 7 years of rebellion.

The wedding would be a sight to behold, with enormous sums being spent from both sides.
The closest OTL comparison would be Qatr anNada's wedding in 900, between Tulunids and Abbasids, but this would be many times greater in opulence and grandeur, and about 6x longer.

The wedding procession start in Chang'an, perhaps with Muhammad personally travelling to the city, meeting Daizong.
From there, traversing the silk road, now safer with the Tibetans defeated, then through Transoxiana, Khurasan and Persia. Finally reaching Baghdad. Where weeks of celebration would it take place.
Introducing Chinese cuisine, clothing and customs to the Islamic world
Perhaps travelling to Egypt too, so the western regions don't feel entirely left out.




Princess Qizhaoyi living in Baghdad, would bring her courtiers, servants, entertainers, poets etc with her.
And probably some of her family, such as from her mother's side of the Cui clan of Boling, the most important family in the Tang dynasty, who produced 15 chancellors. However, many of their members were killed in the An Lushan Rebellion, weakening their power.

Perhaps even her brother, Prince Li Miao could move to Baghdad also....


Allowing the Alid administration to be greatly improved upon, by drawing on the Tang's administration and bureaucracy, the best on earth at the time.

Particularly the Three Departments and Six Ministries system.
3 departments: Central Secretariat, Chancellery, and Department of State Affairs. Which drafted, reviewed and implemented policy respectively.
With the Department of State Affairs being head of the 9 courts, 5 directorates and 6 ministries
The latter being most important, composing of: Personnel, Rites, War, Justice, Public Works, and Revenue ministries.

The Caliphate would also mimic the imperial civil service examinations to staff these new departments and ministries.
Though tested on Islamicate texts and sciences, instead of Confucian classics.
Later including texts translated from Greek, Persian, Latin, Sanskrit/Indian languages and Chinese, as the translation movement progresses.
To teach the content of these imperial examinations, schools would pop up everywhere. Somewhat like the Nizamiyyah system 400 years later.


Beyond that, Chinese style censuses, for better taxation. And more generally, a massive increase in record keeping of all types.
Finally, seeing the benefits of woodblock printing, to later enable government and higher class usage of the Tarsh.

Overall the greatly developed administration should allow more central control over the empire. Whilst also increasing the literarization of the Muslim world.

With the scholarly bureaucrats elite becoming more important than the military classes.



Other than that, stronger contact with the Chinese would allow quicker adoption of the blast furnace, improving Muslim iron and steel production.

As well as rudders for naval navigation, greater crossbow use, and other developments.


The Alid royal palace being styled upon the Daming palace, one of the largest palaces in human history, probably only second to Weiyang palace of the Han, which may still survive ITTL, due to the Tibetan pillaging of Chang'an not occuring.

A Chinese Caliph ​

Ideally, Muhammad would be succeeded by his child with Princess Qizhaoyi on his death at 70 in 789, making his son only 20.
This son would be fluent in both Chinese and Arabic. And would've even spent a few years in China under his half-uncle Emperor Dezong.

His reign would result in further sinicization of the Caliphate.

Though he would likely have some difficulties in controlling the west of the empire.
Ibrahim's Superprovince of the entire Maghreb, Iberia, Southern France, Southern Italy and somewhat Egypt, would've been split up on his death, in the late 760s/770s, into around a dozen provinces, preventing a rival power build up.

But after Muhammad Nafs azZakiyyah's death, tensions may flare up.
Especially as his Chinese son, might be seen as too eastern. To prevent this, he would need to be fluent in Berber, and would need loyalty of the navy.
But the east would be far more important, due to India.


He would use his Chinese lineage to increase Caliphal influence in China. Particularly by assisting the Cui clan of his grandmother.

While the Caliphate's Indian Ocean navy, would've established a strong position in the Austronesian island of Taiwan, dominating the western plains.
Using its strategic position to increase trade with China, and to a lesser extent Korea and Japan.
Soon muslims becoming a significant minority throughout the Chinese coast.
Increasing Caliphal influence even more...





Overall, Muslim influence in China would be significant, though conquest or a Muslim dynasty would probably be impossible.
Even if this TL's Tang dynasty does still collapse, a Caliphal vassal state could probably be established in Chang'an and Shaanxi. But by then, the heartland of China would've shifted more towards the south, making Chang'an less strategic and more difficult to control the empire from, making it unlikely to win a warring states period.


This influence would introduce Arab, Greek, Latin, Persian and Indian Sciences and advancements into China also. And to a lesser extent aspects of culture, architecture, cuisine, poetry, literature, clothing, music, history etc.
Making the entirety of AfroEurasia much more interconnected.

I really would enjoy a chapter of just developments and progress in this lol. its an unashamed Islamic golden age wank too.

 

[Nivek]

Making the entirety of AfroEurasia much more interconnected.

Talk about a very unique butterfly

 

[wakobear]

I really would enjoy a chapter of just developments and progress in this lol.

What kinds of development and progress?

Daily life in various regions of the empire?
Or bureaucratic and administrative reform (which i somewhat covered by adoption of Tang bureaucracy),
Or scientific, intellectual, cultural and religious developments?

its an unashamed Islamic golden age wank too.

Its because this POD, is probably one of the only ones in which the Islamic world can be free from major internal problems.
While simultaneously, external regions are at crucial points of weakness.


Internally there are no major threats with the Alids in power, except succession crisises.

Externally, with the massive troop increase and navy afforded by the inclusion of the Maghreb, there aren't any major threats or obstacles.

• Byzantium would be put on the defensive as OTL (though 40 years earlier). But ITTL, besieging meaningful targets which can be annexed and utilized unlike Amorion. Taking one major city per decade, gradually annexing Anatolia. After a century and a half or longer, leaving the Byzantines a city state. Throughout this century and a half, there would be Reversals, and Byzantine victories, temporarily pushing the Arabs back. But the gradual annexation approach would mitigate this, and the enormous resources of the Caliphate could just keep pouring men into the region.
• Northern India had a power vacuum after Lalitâditya. But the Deccan would be much more difficult.
• Charlemagne didn't have a navy, and would be fighting a very powerful foe, with him gone, Frankia/Western Europe breaks
• The Chinese were at their lowest point in over a century, which OTL asked the Uyghurs for help and married a princess to them, ITTL it's the Arabs instead.

Any other POD, has to face major internal problems and generally stronger external enemies.

• An Umayyad TL has huge internal problems. While China is at its all-time peak. Though India and Frankia are weaker.
• A later Abbasid TL has internal revolts and succession crisises. And isnt geared for expansion. Just conquering the Maghreb and Andalus would be difficult.
• After alMuqtadir in early 900s, it's near impossible to reunite the Islamic world, let alone significantly expand its borders.
• A wildly different Seljuk TL, where they push to Iraq immediately after Dandanaqan, then Egypt then build a navy, might be able to. But with great difficulty.
• The Mongols might have a chance if they take Egypt and India, but that would be very unlikely.
• The absolute last chance is if Selim continues after Chaldiran, takes western Persia, builds a Persian gulf navy, then after taking Egypt a red sea navy, to take the Indian Ocean from the Portuguese. Unifying the Muslims of IO, using its lucrative trade to fund campaigns against the remaining Muslim polities.

 

[Valyrianemperor]

What kinds of development and progress?

Daily life in various regions of the empire?
Or bureaucratic and administrative reform (which i somewhat covered by adoption of Tang bureaucracy),
Or scientific, intellectual, cultural and religious developments?





Its because this POD, is probably one of the only ones in which the Islamic world can be free from major internal problems.
While simultaneously, external regions are at crucial points of weakness.


Internally there are no major threats with the Alids in power, except succession crisises.

Externally, with the massive troop increase and navy afforded by the inclusion of the Maghreb, there aren't any major threats or obstacles.

• Byzantium would be put on the defensive as OTL (though 40 years earlier). But ITTL, besieging meaningful targets which can be annexed and utilized unlike Amorion. Taking one major city per decade, gradually annexing Anatolia. After a century and a half or longer, leaving the Byzantines a city state. Throughout this century and a half, there would be Reversals, and Byzantine victories, temporarily pushing the Arabs back. But the gradual annexation approach would mitigate this, and the enormous resources of the Caliphate could just keep pouring men into the region.
• Northern India had a power vacuum after Lalitâditya. But the Deccan would be much more difficult.
• Charlemagne didn't have a navy, and would be fighting a very powerful foe, with him gone, Frankia/Western Europe breaks
• The Chinese were at their lowest point in over a century, which OTL asked the Uyghurs for help and married a princess to them, ITTL it's the Arabs instead.

Any other POD, has to face major internal problems and generally stronger external enemies.

• An Umayyad TL has huge internal problems. While China is at its all-time peak. Though India and Frankia are weaker.
• A later Abbasid TL has internal revolts and succession crisises. And isnt geared for expansion. Just conquering the Maghreb and Andalus would be difficult.
• After alMuqtadir in early 900s, it's near impossible to reunite the Islamic world, let alone significantly expand its borders.
• A wildly different Seljuk TL, where they push to Iraq immediately after Dandanaqan, then Egypt then build a navy, might be able to. But with great difficulty.
• The Mongols might have a chance if they take Egypt and India, but that would be very unlikely.
• The absolute last chance is if Selim continues after Chaldiran, takes western Persia, builds a Persian gulf navy, then after taking Egypt a red sea navy, to take the Indian Ocean from the Portuguese. Unifying the Muslims of IO, using its lucrative trade to fund campaigns against the remaining Muslim polities.

Basically daily life and yearly updates

An example is @Ursogulos fic or even a crescent rising by nassirismo

 

[Nivek]

Daily life in various regions of the empire?
Or bureaucratic and administrative reform (which i somewhat covered by adoption of Tang bureaucracy),
Or scientific, intellectual, cultural and religious developments?

All of it and the unique butterfly of a very chinese influence caliphate

Overall, Muslim influence in China would be significant, though conquest or a Muslim dynasty would probably be impossible.

The former of course but the latter could be pausable with the influence of caliphate and islam slowly permeating China

 

[Silver01]

@Goldensilver81 I'd like to get your thoughts on this TL

Sure I think it's an interesting premise will read it tomorrow

 

[Silver01]

So what are your thoughts?

I not only find it interesting but it's also very plausible the byzantine would imo still do fine Constantine V was just an excellent emperor and Bulgaria is in civil war so he could at any moment just stop his Bulgarian war and go face the Arabs bur after his death assuming His son Leo also dies young like the otl with the raids comparable to al Mansur but with more objectives the Romans could start to fall apart
As the whole china thing I don't know I just don't think how things could go like that

 

[wakobear]

I not only find it interesting but it's also very plausible

It is the best and most ideal way the revolution should've gone.
(It's even not that bad for the Umayyads, due to The governor of Damascus being Muhammad Nafs azZakiyyah's first cousin....)


The single downside, for the Muslim world, is that Yazid iii's attempted Caliphal constitution/limitation of Caliphal powers wouldn't happen whatsoever.
Instead the exact opposite would happen. Since Muhammad Nafs azZakiyyah would have huge messianic semi infallible aura around him. Making any limitations on his power or that of his successors impossible.......

byzantine would imo still do fine Constantine V was just an excellent emperor and Bulgaria is in civil war so he could at any moment just stop his Bulgarian war and go face the Arabs bur after his death assuming His son Leo also dies young like the otl with the raids comparable to al Mansur but with more objectives the Romans could start to fall apart

It would take centuries.
But instead of objectiveless and aimless raiding, they would attempt to take a border fortress every summer raid.
With a major city or provincial capital once every ~10 years. Slowly but surely pushing the frontier further and further west. Providing bases on the plateau itself like Kayseri. Replacing Melitene as 2nd capital of the Awasim. Using it's position further into Anatolia for more effective campaigns further west. Taking Garsaura then Iconium then Amorion, then Ankara then Dorylaeum etc. Each around a decade or longer apart.
The gradual approach would allow full annexation these regions. With the former Awasim of Cilicia and Melitene no longer being part of the frontier any longer, thus no longer being tax exempt.


There would be setbacks and losses on occasion. But overall pushing towards the Aegean sea.

Alliances and funding/supplying the Bulgarians and South Slavs. As well as simultaneous naval attacks on Sicily and Aegean sea would all make this more effective.


Once all of India falls by the mid-late 800s. The only major offensive frontier left would be with the Byzantines....
So it would probably be only a matter of time.

As the whole china thing I don't know I just don't think how things could go like that

It is fairly optimistic/unrealistic.
Mainly just to get the very high level Tang administration in the middle east.

But OTL, during the An Lushan Rebellion, they asked for help from Uyghur Khagan Bayanchur, and gave him a princess from a minor branch of the Tang, in exchange for his assistance.
Also OTL alMansur sent 3,000 men to assist the Tang Emperor.

ITTL, with the Berber half of the Caliph, there would be many more Khurasani to go around.
Allowing 15,000-35,000 troops to support the Tang. In which case they should be able to outdo the Uyghurs and secure a princess.
Especially if they prevent the Tibetan pillaging of 763 of Chang'an, afterwhich it never recovered, all future capitals were further east.



When the Princess moves to the middle east, she would bring courtiers and perhaps family members, which would introduce the 3 departments and 6 ministries system into the Caliphate. Making it much more developed almost immediately.
A better and more powerful bureaucracy/administration, should greatly reduce the impact of a bad ruler. Making the Caliphate much more stable in the long run. Eventually probably just a puppet of the bureaucrats - but that's probably better than being puppets of military generals

This should also deepen the ties between the middle east and china more generally. With the silk road increasing in scale. Ideally the Caliphate being seen not as barbarians to the Chinese but almost equals.....

It'd also quicken the spread of Chinese technology like blast furnace, block printing, mouldboard plough, tea cultivation in the Caspian region. Better rice cultivation techniques, improved watermills etc. Later the compass and gunpowder