I don't think it's unrealistic for Japan to keep Taiwan ITTL, myself, unless they get into a war with the US. If it's just China, Japan's the dominant naval power, and you need major naval/ampohibious capabilities to take Taiwan. I'd say Taiwan could become a Prefecture in its own right by the modern era.

Even if Japan goes to war, I wouldn't necessarily discount Japan keeping Taiwan. IOTL, it was only Chiang Kai-Shek's insistence that Taiwan be given back to China that saw the allies contemplate it. Even then, FDR agreed to the proposal purely to cultivate a good relationship with China and because the request was, IIRC, made towards the end of FDR's life so he might have been more permissive than otherwise.

If the Chinese do not make such demands as loudly or as resolutely as they did IOTL (or if the war with Japan is less bitter than OTL), the rest of the Allies might just not care enough to detach Taiwan from Japan. If China is instead viewed as a potential rival (due to an alliance with, say, Germany), then the USA might decide to keep Taiwan as part of Japan and use it as an unsinkable aircraft carrier next to China. Korea and Manchuria are sure to go, but Taiwan wasn't really paid attention to.
 
Even if Japan goes to war, I wouldn't necessarily discount Japan keeping Taiwan. IOTL, it was only Chiang Kai-Shek's insistence that Taiwan be given back to China that saw the allies contemplate it. Even then, FDR agreed to the proposal purely to cultivate a good relationship with China and because the request was, IIRC, made towards the end of FDR's life so he might have been more permissive than otherwise.

If the Chinese do not make such demands as loudly or as resolutely as they did IOTL (or if the war with Japan is less bitter than OTL), the rest of the Allies might just not care enough to detach Taiwan from Japan. If China is instead viewed as a potential rival (due to an alliance with, say, Germany), then the USA might decide to keep Taiwan as part of Japan and use it as an unsinkable aircraft carrier next to China. Korea and Manchuria are sure to go, but Taiwan wasn't really paid attention to.
Why did they have this reluctance to give it to China? Was it not seen as an integral part of it?
 
Why did they have this reluctance to give it to China? Was it not seen as an integral part of it?
I mean, it was apart of Japan for 50 years. Granted, that doesn't mean much when parts of Germany were stripped away when they were in German hands for hundreds of years, but there could be a reluctance on the side of whoever defeats Japan to simply give up Taiwan to China because it's strategically important, as others have noted.
 
Why did they have this reluctance to give it to China? Was it not seen as an integral part of it?
IIRC, i've read literatures about history of Taiwan and for the longest time it was ruled by a series of tribal confederations and petty kingdoms.

The Qing dominion at Taiwan is just a recent phenomenon (1650+) and it didn't last long after its first defeat against Japan in 1870(?). Their hold in Taiwan is only 50-70 years longer than Japan's.
 
Why did they have this reluctance to give it to China? Was it not seen as an integral part of it?
Not reluctance, really. Apathy was more like it. It wasn't really perceived as Chinese (unlike Manchria), so it wasn't really included into considerations of what would go to China as a default course of action (again, unlike Manchuria). As Kosaki_MacTavish noted, China didn't really control Taiwan in any serious way for a long time. Even during the Qing Empire's rule, Taiwan was almost an afterthought.
 
Even if Japan goes to war, I wouldn't necessarily discount Japan keeping Taiwan. IOTL, it was only Chiang Kai-Shek's insistence that Taiwan be given back to China that saw the allies contemplate it. Even then, FDR agreed to the proposal purely to cultivate a good relationship with China and because the request was, IIRC, made towards the end of FDR's life so he might have been more permissive than otherwise.

If the Chinese do not make such demands as loudly or as resolutely as they did IOTL (or if the war with Japan is less bitter than OTL), the rest of the Allies might just not care enough to detach Taiwan from Japan. If China is instead viewed as a potential rival (due to an alliance with, say, Germany), then the USA might decide to keep Taiwan as part of Japan and use it as an unsinkable aircraft carrier next to China. Korea and Manchuria are sure to go, but Taiwan wasn't really paid attention to.
Good point...

Why did they have this reluctance to give it to China? Was it not seen as an integral part of it?
I mean, it was apart of Japan for 50 years. Granted, that doesn't mean much when parts of Germany were stripped away when they were in German hands for hundreds of years, but there could be a reluctance on the side of whoever defeats Japan to simply give up Taiwan to China because it's strategically important, as others have noted.
IIRC, i've read literatures about history of Taiwan and for the longest time it was ruled by a series of tribal confederations and petty kingdoms.

The Qing dominion at Taiwan is just a recent phenomenon (1650+) and it didn't last long after its first defeat against Japan in 1870(?). Their hold in Taiwan is only 50-70 years longer than Japan's.
Not reluctance, really. Apathy was more like it. It wasn't really perceived as Chinese (unlike Manchria), so it wasn't really included into considerations of what would go to China as a default course of action (again, unlike Manchuria). As Kosaki_MacTavish noted, China didn't really control Taiwan in any serious way for a long time. Even during the Qing Empire's rule, Taiwan was almost an afterthought.
Also true. With a different situation in China, might have gone like Okinawa did OTL: directly administered by the US for strategic reasons for a time, then handed back to Japan in the 70s or so.
 
IIRC, i've read literatures about history of Taiwan and for the longest time it was ruled by a series of tribal confederations and petty kingdoms.

The Qing dominion at Taiwan is just a recent phenomenon (1650+) and it didn't last long after its first defeat against Japan in 1870(?). Their hold in Taiwan is only 50-70 years longer than Japan's.
tbf Taiwan was colonised by China before the Japanese, and that is why the Taiwanese-aboriginies don't like the majority Chinese population too. It's more that Taiwan has changed hands multiple times...
What Quinkana said, to the point that many people had nostalgia for Japanese rule after the KMT took over (though that was also due to KMT corruption).
that is a large part of why Taiwanese have a good impression of Japan, yeah. Taiwanese people were forced to all learn mandarin and the such, and hokkien was repressed too.
I don't think it's unrealistic for Japan to keep Taiwan ITTL, myself, unless they get into a war with the US. If it's just China, Japan's the dominant naval power, and you need major naval/ampohibious capabilities to take Taiwan. I'd say Taiwan could become a Prefecture in its own right by the modern era.
Yeah, if it's only Japan v China there's no way Taiwan would be able to become part of China. Hell, it is possible that if Japan wins Taiwan gets home rule as the government calms down post war.
Even if Japan goes to war, I wouldn't necessarily discount Japan keeping Taiwan. IOTL, it was only Chiang Kai-Shek's insistence that Taiwan be given back to China that saw the allies contemplate it. Even then, FDR agreed to the proposal purely to cultivate a good relationship with China and because the request was, IIRC, made towards the end of FDR's life so he might have been more permissive than otherwise.

If the Chinese do not make such demands as loudly or as resolutely as they did IOTL (or if the war with Japan is less bitter than OTL), the rest of the Allies might just not care enough to detach Taiwan from Japan. If China is instead viewed as a potential rival (due to an alliance with, say, Germany), then the USA might decide to keep Taiwan as part of Japan and use it as an unsinkable aircraft carrier next to China. Korea and Manchuria are sure to go, but Taiwan wasn't really paid attention to.
I think it depends on who is running the war and who's fighting what. If the European theatre is mostly against the Soviets (and mostly focused on keeping the Soviets in Russia instead of whatever the Nazis tried to do with American assistance) there is a possibility that the Americans ally with the Japanese so the Japan could take the Far East.

Or if Japan goes to war with America, the Chinese lobby is just different/Chiang isn't the leader of China Taiwan may very well be viewed as integral Japanese territory, or that after a period of American occupation the citizens of the island could vote to unify with China, Japan or independence.
Not reluctance, really. Apathy was more like it. It wasn't really perceived as Chinese (unlike Manchria), so it wasn't really included into considerations of what would go to China as a default course of action (again, unlike Manchuria). As Kosaki_MacTavish noted, China didn't really control Taiwan in any serious way for a long time. Even during the Qing Empire's rule, Taiwan was almost an afterthought.
Yeah the original reason why the Qing conquered the region is bc Ming remnants were there, and largely didn't care about Taiwan after. Taiwan is in a very different situation than Manchouko and Korea too, with substantial Japanese investment into Taiwan itself.
Also true. With a different situation in China, might have gone like Okinawa did OTL: directly administered by the US for strategic reasons for a time, then handed back to Japan in the 70s or so.
I think Taiwan would be contentious enough that America may just tell them to vote to see where they want to end up instead, since there would be pro and anti Chinese sentiments in Taiwan, not to mention independence movements post war.
 
Just wanted to let everyone know that a new chapter will be coming soon (2-4 days), I had a bit of a roadblock on the Italo-Ethiopian War and ended up having to scrap a large chunk of what I wrote so that has delayed posting further. The biggest issue is proving to be balancing the international reaction in a way that feels interesting relative to the divergences in the timeline while also remaining realistic
 
Just wanted to let everyone know that a new chapter will be coming soon (2-4 days), I had a bit of a roadblock on the Italo-Ethiopian War and ended up having to scrap a large chunk of what I wrote so that has delayed posting further. The biggest issue is proving to be balancing the international reaction in a way that feels interesting relative to the divergences in the timeline while also remaining realistic
I could certainly see Germany condemn it this time round. They don't need Italy and the Italian's have been meddling in Austria which is very much Germany's sphere of influence (and will willingly unify as soon as possible, probably even more easily than it did OTL without the Nazi's) and its a chance to send the Italian's a message to stay out of Central European affairs while looking good.
 
I could certainly see Germany condemn it this time round. They don't need Italy and the Italian's have been meddling in Austria which is very much Germany's sphere of influence (and will willingly unify as soon as possible, probably even more easily than it did OTL without the Nazi's) and its a chance to send the Italian's a message to stay out of Central European affairs while looking good.
Also useful in making them look good in diplomatic sense and maybe even get a road into a African market via developement in the country
 
I could certainly see Germany condemn it this time round. They don't need Italy and the Italian's have been meddling in Austria which is very much Germany's sphere of influence (and will willingly unify as soon as possible, probably even more easily than it did OTL without the Nazi's) and its a chance to send the Italian's a message to stay out of Central European affairs while looking good.
Yeah it'd strengthen their dedication to the 'current world order' which the Brits would appreciate, and it would allow Germany more wriggle room in Africa. I could imagine Germany putting their investments into Ethiopia and Tanganika (or Tanzania), and (hopefully) make them prosperous nations in the future.

I still think Germany probably would prioritise investment into Bulgaria and Austria first and foremost.
 
Yeah it'd strengthen their dedication to the 'current world order' which the Brits would appreciate, and it would allow Germany more wriggle room in Africa. I could imagine Germany putting their investments into Ethiopia and Tanganika (or Tanzania), and (hopefully) make them prosperous nations in the future.

I still think Germany probably would prioritise investment into Bulgaria and Austria first and foremost.
True. A colony or two returned is a case of "would be nice" but keeping Italy from meddling in Austria would be a much bigger priority. L-V is likely to much more willing to write off the Sudetan German's than Hitler ever would be but no interwar German leader can risk anything that looks like abandoning Austria if he wants to rule very long. As far as most people were concerned the refusal to allow unification after WW1 was a crime and a second rate power like Italy getting control of part of the German heartlands would be humiliation.

Condemning the invasion lets Germany get in good with the British and makes it look to Italy like their rival for control of Austria has the big guns at their back. It also signals Germany will be willing to play nice and live with the status quo as long as the more egregious clauses of the peace treaty are made null and void.

Obviously as OTL the one that will really worry is the Czech's who aren't going to be happy to eventually have Germany surrounding them on three sides. That said without the racist ideology I could easily see L-V try to make friends with the Czech's and doing a deal over territorial integrity in exchange for the ability to stock up on Prague's fine armaments without the complications of having to try take over the country.

I doubt that Germany will have investment opportunities in Ethiopia, considering that it will probably be conquered by Italy.
They will have chances elsewhere if they're still part of the international system. Also without Germany propping them up and probably facing pariah status its unlikely Italy keeps it long term anyway. Especially as Britain absolutely thumped them OTL using one finger and obsolete (in Europe) equipment. Getting them out won't be hard its just the mess they make before the inevitable general war in Europe.
 
The Italy of this TL is much stronger, having undergone strong industrialization.
Its not that strong, and like I said its most likely to find itself on its own this time. Especially as without a nakedly evil Germany its very much the bad boy of Europe that everyone wants to slap down.

Also wouldn't shock me if L-V would like to at least keep Britain neutral in any general war to come, and keeping his word (and only eventually starting a war over the corridor rather than having broken every agreement made for years before) might see Britain more willing to say "Not our fight" and simply sell arms instead of getting involved this time.
 
Its not that strong, and like I said its most likely to find itself on its own this time. Especially as without a nakedly evil Germany its very much the bad boy of Europe that everyone wants to slap down.
The pariah of Europe is the Soviet Union. With Britain having much warmer relations with Germany, France will certainly seek a closer relationship with Italy. Therefore, Italy will be far from being diplomatically isolated.
 
The pariah of Europe is the Soviet Union. With Britain having much warmer relations with Germany, France will certainly seek a closer relationship with Italy. Therefore, Italy will be far from being diplomatically isolated.
Depends what its been doing. OTL Ethiopia managed to win the propaganda war and part of that was because Italy resorted to gassing people which was completely beyond the pale post WW1.
 
The pariah of Europe is the Soviet Union. With Britain having much warmer relations with Germany, France will certainly seek a closer relationship with Italy. Therefore, Italy will be far from being diplomatically isolated.
There can be two pariahs at the same time and at least the USSR is in it's own corner keeping quiet unlike Italy who's desperate to be one of the big boys club. I also don't think France would go for Italy, at least not initially because they would much rather have British backing(which if push comes to shove, they will support France) instead of Italy, not to say they can't plan some thing and maybe get warmer with one another but not a full blown friendship
 
There can be two pariahs at the same time and at least the USSR is in it's own corner keeping quiet unlike Italy who's desperate to be one of the big boys club. I also don't think France would go for Italy, at least not initially because they would much rather have British backing(which if push comes to shove, they will support France) instead of Italy, not to say they can't plan some thing and maybe get warmer with one another but not a full blown friendship
Agreed. Italy has done to much not to annoy all the big boys even if France maybe sees it as useful. Meanwhile the SU has been quiet since Stalin's time began and its highly unlikely (because of who he was) that it won't shortly be tearing itself apart with a Great Purge.
 
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