What if Linclon and Davis manage to pick their best generals early on - say, early 1862 - and we see them in the field instead of some of the incompetents who did rise early. Any impact on the war? Pick your line-up for either or both sides and tell me what you think.
ACW All-Star Generals
- Thread starter Kevin in Indy
- Start date
The Confederacy did a passable job of getting its best men in the saddle quickly - their all-star lineup would be about the same, with the possible exception of keeping ASJohnson alive. All this would do is change the Union lineup to about what it was in 1865 - Grant, Meade, and Sheridan out East, Thomas and Sherman out west. End result: Confederacy bludgeoned to death three years early.
I cant think of any ACW generals who can qualify as all-stars. Many of the better regarded ones got lucky a lot, and there were not to many stellar ones.
Something like this will arise:
Union: Grant, Sherman, Meade, Sheridan, Thomas, Hooker, Hancock, McClellan
CSA: Lee, Longstreet, AS Johnson, J Johnson, Jackson
Union wins a bit faster. Material advantage does the south in.
I know some of these may seem odd. But they are well thought out. Hooker only commanded in one battle, which he should have won except for communication errors. McClellan was a great organizer and motivator, and will be useful if kept away from the front. I think I missed a few southern commanders, but they had a decent staff throughout most of the war.
Something like this will arise:
Union: Grant, Sherman, Meade, Sheridan, Thomas, Hooker, Hancock, McClellan
CSA: Lee, Longstreet, AS Johnson, J Johnson, Jackson
Union wins a bit faster. Material advantage does the south in.
I know some of these may seem odd. But they are well thought out. Hooker only commanded in one battle, which he should have won except for communication errors. McClellan was a great organizer and motivator, and will be useful if kept away from the front. I think I missed a few southern commanders, but they had a decent staff throughout most of the war.
So, are we considering this essentially ASB? Because then I have a line-up planned out (noting that the good people can only occur in 1 place)
Union:
East:
AotP: Hancock
Ist corps: Reynolds (with Doubleday, Meredith, and Sykes)
IInd corps: Franklin (with Meagher, Caldwell, Zook)
Vth corps: Meade (division commanders Griffin, Warren, Chamberlain)
VIth corps: Sedgewick (Ricketts, um, Richardson, ....
)
XIIth corps: Slocum (Geary, Mansfield, Newton)
Cavalry: Buford
Total: ~130,000
Valley Army: McDowell
Ist corps: Pope
IInd corps: Reno
IIIrd corps: Wright
Cavalry: Sheridan
Total: ~30,000
AotJames: Hooker
IXth corps: Burnside
IInd corps: Humphreys
XVIIIth corps: Porter
Total: ~45,000
West:
AotCumberland: Thomas
IVth corps: Logan
XIVth corps: Howard
XVIth corps: Rosecrans
XVIIth corps: Sickles (why not?)
Cavalry: Wilson
Total: ~70,000
AotTennessee: Grant
?th corps: Sherman
?th corps: Lew Wallace
?th corps: Newton
?th corps: I'm bound to be missing someone good here...
Cavalry: Torbert/that other good guy...(darn it, what's his name?!?)
Total: ~60,000
Administrator in Washington: McClellan
Confederacy:
East:
AoNV: Lee (duh)
Ist corps: Longstreet
Divisions: McLaws, Pickett, R. H. Anderson, Mahone, Walker, D. R. Jones,
IInd corps: Jackson
Divisions: Ewell, Colston, Rhodes, J. Johnston, Taliaferro
IIIrd corps: A. P. Hill
Divisions: Wilcox, Pender, Heth, Trimble, J. R. Jones
Cavalry: JEB Stuart
Total: ~75,000
Valley Army: Gordon
Divisions: Early, Breckenridge, Hayes, (forgotten person)
Cavalry: Hampton
Total: ~20,000
Army at Richmond: D. H. Hill
Supported by Cavalry, various of the younger Lees
Total: ~30,000
West:
AotTennessee: A. S. Johnston
Ist corps: Hood
IInd corps: Hardee (oh, let's be kind and give Bragg a division here...)
IIIrd corps: Crittenden
Cavalry: 2 competing forces under Hunt and Forrest
Total: ~50,000
Army farther west: J. E. Johnston
Ist corps (and advisor): PGT Beauregard
IInd corps: Pemberton
IIIrd corps: I don't know, oh wait......Kirby Smith??
Cavalry: there was that other good dude...Morgan?
Total: ~35,000
Man, that's a long list.
And as for specifics, I have no idea what happens, it depends on exactly where everyone is and at what time (this would be an AWESOME ASB thread, making it a massive competition).
Union:
East:
AotP: Hancock
Ist corps: Reynolds (with Doubleday, Meredith, and Sykes)
IInd corps: Franklin (with Meagher, Caldwell, Zook)
Vth corps: Meade (division commanders Griffin, Warren, Chamberlain)
VIth corps: Sedgewick (Ricketts, um, Richardson, ....
)XIIth corps: Slocum (Geary, Mansfield, Newton)
Cavalry: Buford
Total: ~130,000
Valley Army: McDowell
Ist corps: Pope
IInd corps: Reno
IIIrd corps: Wright
Cavalry: Sheridan
Total: ~30,000
AotJames: Hooker
IXth corps: Burnside
IInd corps: Humphreys
XVIIIth corps: Porter
Total: ~45,000
West:
AotCumberland: Thomas
IVth corps: Logan
XIVth corps: Howard
XVIth corps: Rosecrans
XVIIth corps: Sickles (why not?)
Cavalry: Wilson
Total: ~70,000
AotTennessee: Grant
?th corps: Sherman
?th corps: Lew Wallace
?th corps: Newton
?th corps: I'm bound to be missing someone good here...
Cavalry: Torbert/that other good guy...(darn it, what's his name?!?)
Total: ~60,000
Administrator in Washington: McClellan
Confederacy:
East:
AoNV: Lee (duh)
Ist corps: Longstreet
Divisions: McLaws, Pickett, R. H. Anderson, Mahone, Walker, D. R. Jones,
IInd corps: Jackson
Divisions: Ewell, Colston, Rhodes, J. Johnston, Taliaferro
IIIrd corps: A. P. Hill
Divisions: Wilcox, Pender, Heth, Trimble, J. R. Jones
Cavalry: JEB Stuart
Total: ~75,000
Valley Army: Gordon
Divisions: Early, Breckenridge, Hayes, (forgotten person)
Cavalry: Hampton
Total: ~20,000
Army at Richmond: D. H. Hill
Supported by Cavalry, various of the younger Lees
Total: ~30,000
West:
AotTennessee: A. S. Johnston
Ist corps: Hood
IInd corps: Hardee (oh, let's be kind and give Bragg a division here...)
IIIrd corps: Crittenden
Cavalry: 2 competing forces under Hunt and Forrest
Total: ~50,000
Army farther west: J. E. Johnston
Ist corps (and advisor): PGT Beauregard
IInd corps: Pemberton
IIIrd corps: I don't know
, oh wait......Kirby Smith??Cavalry: there was that other good dude...Morgan?
Total: ~35,000
Man, that's a long list.
And as for specifics, I have no idea what happens, it depends on exactly where everyone is and at what time (this would be an AWESOME ASB thread, making it a massive competition).
Well my line up would be this (I'm too lazy to go into specifics):
Army of Northern Virginia:
General in Command - Robert E. Lee
Corps Commanders - James Longstreet, Thomas J. Jackson
Cavalry Commander - JEB Stuart
Army of Missippi/Tennessee:
General in Command - Joseph E. Johnston
Corps Commanders - PGT Beauregard, John C Breckinridge, Patrick Cleburne
Cavalry Commander - Nathan Bedford Forrest
Army of the Trans-Mississippi:
General in Command - Albert Sidney Johnton
Corps Commanders - Braxton Bragg, William J. Hardee, Edmund Kirby Smith, Thomas C. Hindman
Cavalry Commander - John Hunt Morgan
(I think that the Confederate need a General-in-Chief that isn't Jeff Davis but I cant think of a good one at the moment. Lee and the two Johnstons would probably be too interested in their own theatres to be bothered with overall strategies.)
Army of Northern Virginia:
General in Command - Robert E. Lee
Corps Commanders - James Longstreet, Thomas J. Jackson
Cavalry Commander - JEB Stuart
Army of Missippi/Tennessee:
General in Command - Joseph E. Johnston
Corps Commanders - PGT Beauregard, John C Breckinridge, Patrick Cleburne
Cavalry Commander - Nathan Bedford Forrest
Army of the Trans-Mississippi:
General in Command - Albert Sidney Johnton
Corps Commanders - Braxton Bragg, William J. Hardee, Edmund Kirby Smith, Thomas C. Hindman
Cavalry Commander - John Hunt Morgan
(I think that the Confederate need a General-in-Chief that isn't Jeff Davis but I cant think of a good one at the moment. Lee and the two Johnstons would probably be too interested in their own theatres to be bothered with overall strategies.)
Anaxagoras
Banned
Army of Northern Virginia:Commander: Robert E Lee1st Corps: James Longstreet1st Division: John Bell Hood2nd Division: Richard Anderson3rd Division: William Mahone2nd Corps: Stonewall Jackson1st Division: Richard Ewell2nd Division: Dorsey Pender3rd Division: A P. Hill3rd Corps: Jubal Early1st Division: John B. Gordon2nd Division: Robert Rhodes3rd Division: Robert HokeCavalry: Jeb Stuart1st Brigade: Wade Hampton2nd Brigade: Fitzhugh LeeArmy of TennesseeCommander: Jospeh E. Johnson1st Corps: William Hardee1st Division: Alexander Stewart2nd Division: D.H. Hill3rd Division: Stephen D. Lee2nd Corps: Patrick Cleburne1st Division: Benjamin Cheatham2nd Division: Hiram Granbury3rd Division: States Rights Gist3rd Corps: John C. Breckinridge1st Division: William Bate2nd Division: John S. Bowen3rd Division: Roger HansonCavalry: Nathan B. Forrest1st Brigade: John H. Morgan2nd Brigade: Earl Van Dorn
Anaxagoras
Banned
A thousand apologies. I do not know why the post appears in such a horrible format.
It would be awesome. Lets shanghai 67th right now.
Here y'go Anaxagoras.
67th Tigers
Banned
For a start, I'd relieve Lee from field command retire him to Richmond as Director of Operations, having him running the war von Moltke style, essentially as Scott had before McClellan forced him out.
The the Eastern Theatre, I'd retain the Napoleonic Battalion Carre system Johnston had in place, with 4 Army Corps etc. in fact I'd expand it, moving a cavalry brigade into each Army Corps, and form the rest as a Cavalry Reserve.
For commanders:
Army of Northern Virginia:
Army GOC: J E Johnston
Army COS: Beauregard
1st Corps GOC: Longstreet
- Divisions of Longstreet (Anderson) and A P Hill
- Cavalry Brigade of Robertson
2nd Corps GOC: D H Hill
- Divisions of Hood and Early
- Cavalry Brigade of Jones
3rd Corps GOC: JEB Stuart
- Divisions of Heth and McLaws
- Cavalry Brigade of Jenkins
4th Corps GOC: Ewell
- Divisions of Jackson and Ewell (Lawton)
- Cavalry Brigade of Chambliss
Cavalry Reserve: Imboden
- Brigades of Imboden (Smith), Wade Hampton and Fitzhaugh Lee
Artillery Reserve: Alexander
Have to think on...
The the Eastern Theatre, I'd retain the Napoleonic Battalion Carre system Johnston had in place, with 4 Army Corps etc. in fact I'd expand it, moving a cavalry brigade into each Army Corps, and form the rest as a Cavalry Reserve.
For commanders:
Army of Northern Virginia:
Army GOC: J E Johnston
Army COS: Beauregard
1st Corps GOC: Longstreet
- Divisions of Longstreet (Anderson) and A P Hill
- Cavalry Brigade of Robertson
2nd Corps GOC: D H Hill
- Divisions of Hood and Early
- Cavalry Brigade of Jones
3rd Corps GOC: JEB Stuart
- Divisions of Heth and McLaws
- Cavalry Brigade of Jenkins
4th Corps GOC: Ewell
- Divisions of Jackson and Ewell (Lawton)
- Cavalry Brigade of Chambliss
Cavalry Reserve: Imboden
- Brigades of Imboden (Smith), Wade Hampton and Fitzhaugh Lee
Artillery Reserve: Alexander
Have to think on...
Okay, 67th, this has sunk to new depths even for you. Ewell was an awesome division commander, and a Bragg-esque Corps commander.
Waaaaayyyy too cautious (Gettysburg, Wilderness, Miles Farm, North Anna River). Would not follow most of the advice of his sub-ordinates (same list), including for obviousy good flank assaults (Gordon at Wilderness). Hated by a lot of his immediate sub-ordinates (Trimble, Allegheny Johnston [yet another Johnston], Rhodes). Always deferred to Jubal Early, or his wife. Consistently needed exact orders from Lee, would never take initiative for himself.
I don't care what the exact numbers are, before you even start. By the time Ewell was corps commander, the only possible way to prevent Grant (somewhat Meade, but he was not as aggressive) from winning by attrition was to destroy him utterly, not just a corps or a wing or a single engagement, utterly. True, a lot of this came from Lee, but Anderson, Longstreet, Early, and Hill (when not sick) had something of an agressive spirit, which Ewell manifestly lacked.
And in spite of this, yes, he was one of the best division commanders out there.
And another point: yes, JEB Stuart had been an infantry commander for a time. However, he was never comfortable higher than division level for infantry (see Chancellorsville), and preferred fast movements, manifestly impossible even for Jackson's 'foot cavalry'.
And yet another point: Lawton commanded a division for exactly 1 engagement: Antietam, and he was quite mediocre. That division would go best to Allegheny Johnson, who was a very good and often overlooked division commander.
And one final point: it's not that Heth and McLaws were bad division commanders (they were fine, competent, just that the next two people are better [I am getting into more nitty-gritty points now]), just that they were better at brigade command, and Pender and Mahone respectively should be at the division level.
Sorry, 1 more (promise this is the last): whatever happened to Rooney Lee in Cavalry
?