AHC/WI: Medieval Hungary develops an independent Anglican-style church?

[Halagaz]

Reading about the politics of medieval Hungary, I came across an interesting section.

When the Arpad dynasty died out in 1301, the country erupted into anarchy, with several claimaints struggling against each other. The Pope wholeheartedly backed Charles of Anjou. But the Hungarian barons were not at all happy to line up behind Charles; in fact, many were staunchly opposed to him precisely because he was the Pope's choice. They didn't want to see Papal influence increase; they feared - not without reason - that acknowledging the Pope's choice would mean giving up the tradition of elected Kingship, or even giving up Hungary's independence. So they supported his rivals and insisted on the old traditions, especially on the cult of the Holy Crown of Saint Istvan.

The civil war produced a miniature schism: In Buda, a council of Hungarian priests rose up and defied the Pope's will; they even excommunicated the Pope and his supporters.

So how could this short-lived schism be turned into an independent national church a la Henry VIII? One way might be to avoid the Papacy's transfer to Avignon, so it remains just as feared. Or make Charles weaker and/or less willing to compromise with the barons, and with the traditions of the kingdom.

And how would the new church develop? What's in the cards for Hungary? And what about the rest of Europe? Could the precedent lead to similar schisms in other countries?

 

[Wendell]

This might be easier to do slightly later in history.

 

[Germania09]

Considering the events I would definitely think it's possible for it to go forward

 

[Fabius Maximus]

Reading about the politics of medieval Hungary, I came across an interesting section.

When the Arpad dynasty died out in 1301, the country erupted into anarchy, with several claimaints struggling against each other. The Pope wholeheartedly backed Charles of Anjou. But the Hungarian barons were not at all happy to line up behind Charles; in fact, many were staunchly opposed to him precisely because he was the Pope's choice. They didn't want to see Papal influence increase; they feared - not without reason - that acknowledging the Pope's choice would mean giving up the tradition of elected Kingship, or even giving up Hungary's independence. So they supported his rivals and insisted on the old traditions, especially on the cult of the Holy Crown of Saint Istvan.

The civil war produced a miniature schism: In Buda, a council of Hungarian priests rose up and defied the Pope's will; they even excommunicated the Pope and his supporters.

So how could this short-lived schism be turned into an independent national church a la Henry VIII? One way might be to avoid the Papacy's transfer to Avignon, so it remains just as feared. Or make Charles weaker and/or less willing to compromise with the barons, and with the traditions of the kingdom.

And how would the new church develop? What's in the cards for Hungary? And what about the rest of Europe? Could the precedent lead to similar schisms in other countries?

I'm kind of sceptical as to whether a properly "Anglican" Hungarian Church could develop: people in this period thought that there should only be one, universal, Church (it's right there in the Nicene Creed: "Et unam, sanctam, Catholicam, et apostolicam Ecclesiam"), so splitting off would be a huge no-no. That said, I could see a situation similar to the Western Schism, where the Hungarians (and whoever else they can get to support them) present their own candidate and declare him to be the true Pope, not that impostor in Rome. Alternatively, if the Hungarians keep pushing back at Papal authority but never go so far as to appoint their own Antipope, the Church in Hungary might end up like the 18th-century French Church, still Catholic and in communion with the Pope but essentially subservient to the monarch.

 

[Galba Otho Vitelius]

Could they just throw in with Eastern Orthodoxy, or is 1301 too late for this?

 

[Jürgen]

All respect for medieval Hungary but it's not France or England. It lack the population of France or the large moat of England. If Hungary does this, the most likely result is that the Pope simply give a free hand to anybody wanting to invade Hungary and take over the crown. Hungary may have been able to get away with this if it happened under the Western Schism, but this was a wrong point in time for Hungary getting away with it.

 

[Deleted member 97083]

All respect for medieval Hungary but it's not France or England. It lack the population of France or the large moat of England. If Hungary does this, the most likely result is that the Pope simply give a free hand to anybody wanting to invade Hungary and take over the crown. Hungary may have been able to get away with this if it happened under the Western Schism, but this was a wrong point in time for Hungary getting away with it.

But that in itself would be an interesting outcome too, because if one of Hungary's neighbors conquered Hungary, it would be a much earlier consolidation of the "Habsburg" region.

 

[Jürgen]

But that in itself would be an interesting income too, because if one of Hungary's neighbors conquered Hungary, it would be a much earlier consolidation of the "Habsburg" region.

I'm thinking...

If Hungary are conquered this way, we may see the destruction of much of the nobility and the replacement of them with a foreign one and a full integration with foreign state which conquer them. It may be the end up a separate Hungarian election of kings.

 

[Germania09]

But that in itself would be an interesting income too, because if one of Hungary's neighbors conquered Hungary, it would be a much earlier consolidation of the "Habsburg" region.

And easier since in the post conquest the habsburgs could easily remove them of their properties which long term would see almost no resistance to Habsburg authority from then on

 

[PaleoT]

I think that under that church, a new sect wouldn't be created. It was an attempt of the Hungarians to contest the temporal power of the pope; quite similar to how the French had the anti-pope during and the Babylonian capitivity. The Hungarians were still very much Catholic, although not necessarily supporters of the Pope. And as happend in France as soon as the political ramifications of Papal Influence become less of a problem than the issues that arise with creating a seperate clerical institution, it is likely that Hungary would rejoin the catholic church just as France did. Your best outcome is to time this with Hussite rebellions so that the Hungarians have something to borrow from and convert to. The problem is, there were no unique Hungarian Theologians during this time; the theology and belief was all based off of Catholic doctrine. So maybe you could ofcourse create a new Theologian, or perhaps have pre-reformation heresies of christianity hold greater sway in Europe such as Arianism, Coptic Christianity and Orthodox Christianity(If they had a larger western power base). But I don't see them forming their own, unique church. Henry the Eighth formed his own church that was in his lifetime still very Catholic(He only wanted to divorce his wife because he believed he was damned for marrying his dead brother's wife, he was a devout Catholic) and the only reason the church remained seperate was because of its timing with the Reformation and Britain's isolation.

 

[Halagaz]

I'm kind of sceptical as to whether a properly "Anglican" Hungarian Church could develop: people in this period thought that there should only be one, universal, Church (it's right there in the Nicene Creed: "Et unam, sanctam, Catholicam, et apostolicam Ecclesiam"), so splitting off would be a huge no-no. That said, I could see a situation similar to the Western Schism, where the Hungarians (and whoever else they can get to support them) present their own candidate and declare him to be the true Pope, not that impostor in Rome. Alternatively, if the Hungarians keep pushing back at Papal authority but never go so far as to appoint their own Antipope, the Church in Hungary might end up like the 18th-century French Church, still Catholic and in communion with the Pope but essentially subservient to the monarch.

Interesting. So what other Catholic powers might have been inclined to back the Hungarian Pope? Maybe some of the enemies of the "real" (ie. Avignon) Papacy, like Louis IV the Bavarian.

Could they just throw in with Eastern Orthodoxy, or is 1301 too late for this?

I think it's a bit too late at this point. Then again, I remember reading somewhere that King Ladislaus IV - who ruled Hungary only 10-15 years before all this - allegedly did plan to convert to Orthodoxy. According to another interpretation, he was seriously considering
paganism instead. Which would be the most interesting of all options, in theory; but I can't see it really going anywhere.

 

[LeCHVCK]

I'm thinking...

If Hungary are conquered this way, we may see the destruction of much of the nobility and the replacement of them with a foreign one and a full integration with foreign state which conquer them. It may be the end up a separate Hungarian election of kings.

If the Hungarian nobility is replaced by a German one could this end up in a partial germanization of Hungary like it did in Bohemia? Also wouldn't Poland, Transsylvania and Bohemia be contenders as well?

 

[Jürgen]

If the Hungarian nobility is replaced by a German one could this end up in a partial germanization of Hungary like it did in Bohemia?

I think a Germanisation of Hungary depend on whether it becomes depopulated, the large German settlements in OTL Hungary (outside Burgenland and Bradislava) was a result of the Ottomans depopulating much of Hungary.

Also wouldn't Poland, Transsylvania and Bohemia be contenders as well?

Poland and Bohemia yes, but wasn't Transsylvania a integrated part of Hungary at this point. Ironic replacing the Hungarian aristocracy with Slavs instead of German may have bigger effect, as Slavish was widely spoken in Hungary.