AHC/WI: Stable Republic of China after 1912

With a POD after its creation on January 1st 1912, make the Republic of China stabilise and maintain control over all territories held by the Qing at the time of the Xinhai revolution.

Some questions to guide the discussion:
  • Would getting rid of Yuan Shikai (say he has a heart attack shortly after becoming president) allow Song Jiaoren and the Kuomitang to establish a stable parliamentary system. Yuan's presumed successor as president, Li Yuanhong was no friend to the nationalists, but he would surely be far easier to deal with than Yuan. At most Song would have to compromise and give some limited powers to the presidency, in my opinion. The real question, thus, is whether or not the Beiyang would behave...
  • Without the warlord era and with a stable government throughout most of the 1910s, how much stronger can China be in the 1920s? Could they be in position to resist Japanese expansionist ambitions? How would Japan and the west deal with a stable, unified and presumably much stronger China?
  • How would the political culture of a stable democratic Chinese Republic in this period evolve? In the 1912 election, it was mostly the Kuomitang versus a bunch of conservative status parties. For how long would this continue? I assume that internal differences within the KMT would surface relatively soon, especially seeing as, from what I know of it, Song toned down the leftier elements of the parties ideology to appeal to the gentry in the 1912 election (where suffrage was fairly limited). How would this play out?
 
No takers?

Some more questions to hopefully stimulate discussion:
  • Would a stronger China be in position to take advantage of the Russian civil war to reconquer outer Mongolia and maybe even outer Manchuria?
  • What about Tibet? Could the Chinese recover it eventually or would the British intervene to protect its independence?
  • Given that 1919 Korean independence movement was supported by Kuomitang China, would a stable and stronger China increase its chances of success ITTL?
 
Japan may not decide to invade a more stable China, especially if the united government has close relations with the Axis and can get reinforcements from them. Assuming that this does happen, the USA won't be as likely to intervene in WW2 as no Japanese attack on China means that there is going to be a Oil Embargo, so Japan won't be starved of resources like in OTL.
 
Japan may not decide to invade a more stable China, especially if the united government has close relations with the Axis and can get reinforcements from them. Assuming that this does happen, the USA won't be as likely to intervene in WW2 as no Japanese attack on China means that there is going to be a Oil Embargo, so Japan won't be starved of resources like in OTL.
Germany still conducts unrestricted submarine warfare. Hell, even before Pearl Harbor, the US and Germany were already in an UNDECLARED WAR.
 
Surely the isolationists in congress and the senate would be against entering the War against Germany though? I mean it took 3,400 casualties from a surprise attack in OTL, for them to abandon their stance.
 
Back to the original question: I maintain that the first thing we need to get na stable China after 1912 would be a stable and preferably Democratic Japan, one that at least makes a lien effort to keep it's promises towards China and the occupied territories. Perhaps if emperor Joshihito were in better health and lived longer a more successful Taisho era might accomplish that. This would be my first POD.

Japan could still be afraid of everything communist, but instead of being hell-bent on grabbing as much of China as they can, lest the Communists grab it first and suddenly stand at their doorstep, it would now want a stable and democratic China between the USSR and themselves as a buffer, a very large one.....
 
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Perhaps the Peace end of Japanese politics grows in strength as Japan doesn't really want to fight a Strong unified China.

Instead they become more democratic to be able to work better with the UK and the US.

When the Molotov-Ribbentrop-Wang Pact is signed the Home Islands are seen as a launching point for any military actions against Stalin, Hitler, or Chiang.
 
  • Would getting rid of Yuan Shikai (say he has a heart attack shortly after becoming president) allow Song Jiaoren and the Kuomitang to establish a stable parliamentary system. Yuan's presumed successor as president, Li Yuanhong was no friend to the nationalists, but he would surely be far easier to deal with than Yuan. At most Song would have to compromise and give some limited powers to the presidency, in my opinion. The real question, thus, is whether or not the Beiyang would behave...
Possible i would say.
  • Without the warlord era and with a stable government throughout most of the 1910s, how much stronger can China be in the 1920s? Could they be in position to resist Japanese expansionist ambitions? How would Japan and the west deal with a stable, unified and presumably much stronger China?
better than otl, but the KMT itself, the second generation at least was massively corrupt, so yeah whilst no warlord era means more stability, i don't think it means development.
  • How would the political culture of a stable democratic Chinese Republic in this period evolve? In the 1912 election, it was mostly the Kuomitang versus a bunch of conservative status parties. For how long would this continue? I assume that internal differences within the KMT would surface relatively soon, especially seeing as, from what I know of it, Song toned down the leftier elements of the parties ideology to appeal to the gentry in the 1912 election (where suffrage was fairly limited). How would this play out?
The KMT under Sun Yat-Sen and after are different beasts entirely. Former wanted a true multi-party democracy, the latter wanted to become a virtual one-party state. It depends on what happens after Yatsen.
 
Also thing to keep in mind is that the 1911-12 revolution was anti-Manchu, and many called out that the revolution was not anti-monarchist. This led to the rise of the Yellow Sands and the White Wolfs. Pro-Monarchist factions in China with tens of millions of people at their height. Apparently in 1916, the original plan that Yuan Shikhai made for a restoration of the monarchy and empire of china was largely supported. to quote on from another thread:-

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it seems that Yuan Shikhai's early plans, including that of Yang Du involved the first emperor being elected and Yuan, who was pretty stressed, becoming supreme commander of the army and then retire after sometime. However his personal greed for power got in the way of his earlier pragmatic plan, and he himself became emperor.

according to history of republican china by cambridge, the initial plan for a chinese monarchy was that there would be qualifications (extremely high standards - education, charisma, physical build, public standing etc were all taken into account), and then after several exams, debates, and speeches, a panel of 50 judges from the National Assembly would pick the new emperor. The new empire would become a constitutional monarchy, and if preferable get the new emperor to marry one of the Zhu daughters or Qing princess's.

This plan was widely supported. Even Yuan Shikhai's future enemies Liang Chichiao and Cai Yuanpei. Both very influential men. It was predicted that either Duke Yansheng, Zhu Jianfan, Kong Xuangxi or Yuan Kewen would win the emperorship. Mainly because all four of them had the qualities needed.

However, this plan obviously didn't go ahead because of Shikhai's personal greed which overcame his stress. Make him keep that stress, and fear, so that he goes ahead with his initial plan. It will still garner opposition, but very weak in comparison to otl.

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It is therefore also very likely that the Duke of Confucius or the House of Ming can retake power in a constitutional monarchy (though there is a chance a charismatic commonman becomes emperor as well).

Nonetheless, i know this thread calls for a stable republic, however i was pointing out that a restoration wasn't out of the picture at all, even for a stable China after 1912.
 
Back to the original question: I maintain that the first thing we need to get na stable China after 1912 would be a stable and preferably Democratic Japan, one that at least makes a lien effort to keep it's promises towards China and the occupied territories. Perhaps if emperor Joshihito were in better health and lived longer a more successful Taisho era might accomplish that. This would be my first POD.

I honestly fail to see the relationship. A democratic Japan isn't inherently more likely to refrain from aggressive imperialism than an authoriatarian one. In fact, in the late 19th and early 20th century liberalism and ultra-nationalism often went hand in hand. The twenty one demands were made under a liberal government...

Also, I don't think the key for a democratic Japan lies with the Emperor but with a more unified liberal movement that is able to produce stable parliamentary governments and limiting military intervention in politics.

But anyway, regarddless of whether or not Japan is aggressive towards China, the later can still be unified under a stable government. The question is how such a government would fare in an eventual war against Japan. Most likely, given China's immense population and resources, in a timeline where the warlord era never happened, the balance of power could be so drastically different that Japan wouldn't even think to attack China.

better than otl, but the KMT itself, the second generation at least was massively corrupt, so yeah whilst no warlord era means more stability, i don't think it means development.

Corruption is indeed a very serious problem, but I'd argue that, at least in an early phase, it doesn't necessarily prevent economic development. As long as there is stability, a workforce and a pool of resources, economic growth just naturally follows. China's economy grew quite considerably during the Nanjing decade, precisely because of stability and despite the KMT's rampant corruption. Just imagine that over a larger period 1912-1937 instead of 1927-1937.

That said, there's no particular reason why corruption ITTL needs to be as much of a problem as it was IOTL. The KMT doesn't have to develop the same way, and there is no reason why the ROC would necessarily end up as a KMT one-party state.

The KMT under Sun Yat-Sen and after are different beasts entirely. Former wanted a true multi-party democracy, the latter wanted to become a virtual one-party state. It depends on what happens after Yatsen.

With a 1912 POD I think we can pretty safely take Chiang, and thus the OTL KMT as we eventually came to know it, out of the picture. In 1912, I think there was definitely a consensus within the party, but there were significant internal differences in policy. Despite being the intellectual and symbolic leader of the KMT, Sun Yat-sen stayed largely in the background during the 1912 election campaign. It was Song Jiaoren who did most of the work during this period, and he was the one who was expected to become premier. By all accounts, Song was more conservative than Sun and owed his electoral success to his ability to appeal to the upper classes (suffrage was very restricted in the 1912 election). So, while even he would be likely to pursue suffrage expansion (seeing as, although they might be more sympathetic to the other wing of the party, poorer people were still overwhemingly more likely to vote for the KMT than the more conservative opposition), it seems likely that he would crash with Sun (who I assume would emerge as the leader of the left-wing of the party) over things like land reform, taxation and social welfare. The result of this conflict is likely to determine the nature of the KMT for the years to come. Will it become a left-wing populist party that appeals to the lower-classes? Or a right-wing party that appeals to the landed gentry? Maybe something in between.

Also thing to keep in mind is that the 1911-12 revolution was anti-Manchu, and many called out that the revolution was not anti-monarchist.

While it is definitely true that there were anti-Qing monarchist movements in China (eg. Liang Qichao and co.), the Xinhai revolution itself was most definitely republican, as it was organized by the Tongmenhui (precursor to the KMT and already committed to republicanism) and sympathetic factions of the military. Yuan Shikai's cooperation was crucial for success, of course, but the revolution was done by republicans.

I agree that some kind of Han dynasty would be possible if anti-Qing monarchists had coalesced around a strong candidate (who obviously could not be Yuan Shikai), but as you say I'm looking for a republic here.
 
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