Alternate England

[Norman]

I'm doing sme pretty intensive research into the Anglo-saxon period of England, and came across the following website:

http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/Harold_of_England.

Essentially, this website claims that there is a movement afoot in the Orthodox church to canonize Harold Godwinsson as a Saint of the Church, because he was standing against the Roman Church.

Although I do have some problems with the hypothesis, what if it were true and Harold had won the war?

What would the impact on Western Europe have been if the early church in England (1066 through 1500)was a member of the 'Orthodox' communion rather than the Roman Catholic Church?

For eaxmple, one question I have is: What about the crusades?

 

[Thande]

It is possible...England was Catholic, but had only made up its mind to turn away from the Celtic Church in the 600s, and the Anglo-Saxons weren't anything like as enthusiastic about Catholicism as the Normans would be. I think a non-Norman England would definitely have a decentralised, non-Romish church sooner or later (even with the Normans, there were several opportunities for a break with Rome before Henryh VIII went and did it) and I could see the Anglo-Saxons aligning with the Orthodox Church for reasons of both realpolitick and the more decentralised nature of the Orthodox. As for the crusades, I think there were a few Russian Orthodox missions sent to the Byzantines, and if England were a major power in the Crusades then there probably wouldn't be a Western effort to unseat the Byzantines and install a Latin Empire, fatally weakening the Christians in the East.

 

[Melvin Loh]

Could england in TTL have potentially developed an earlier Protestant-style breakaway church ?

 

[Carpo]

I've seen the website too. It seems to be the product of a fringe group in Orthodoxy.

As for the pre-Norman church in England being non-Roman or decentralized the idea may be great AH but it doesn't fit with history of our time line. The church of Saxon England was loyal to Rome and even had a church in Rome that Saxon pilgrims (among them the royalty) could stay at. Harold himself had made pilgrimage to Rome and his bishops always swore allegiance to the Holy See. The church in England had decided to follow the Roman way of the date of Easter at the Synod of Whitby in the 600's but there was never any doubt that before the synod and after they were in communion with Rome. It's important to realize that our current image of the RC Church is based on what it's looked like since Trent in the 1500's before that it looked rather different.

"As for the crusades, I think there were a few Russian Orthodox missions sent to the Byzantines"

The Russian became Orthodox in 998 after missionaries were sent to them by the Byzantines.

Carpo

 

[Thande]

I meant missions as in troops to fight for the Byzantines, not religious missions.

 

[Carpo]

Oh! My error. Most of the non-Byzantine troops fighting for the emperor were from Scandinavia and even Britain.

 

[Flocculencio]

Harold himself had made pilgrimage to Rome and his bishops always swore allegiance to the Holy See.

But hadn't Harald Godwinson been excommunicated by the Pope? IIRC that was why William the Bastard was able to present the invasion of England as a holy war.

So if Harald wins at Hastings there might be more mileage in allying with another religious power opposed to the Roman Catholic Church.

Ah...Anglo-Saxon England, my favourite. Can we get another crusade into Mexico, Norman?

Interesting thought- if Constantinople falls to the Turks in this TL, could the King of England then make a good claim to take over the mantle of Head of the Orthodox Church? London as the Third Rome?

 

[Norman]

But hadn't Harald Godwinson been excommunicated by the Pope? IIRC that was why William the Bastard was able to present the invasion of England as a holy war.

So if Harald wins at Hastings there might be more mileage in allying with another religious power opposed to the Roman Catholic Church.

Ah...Anglo-Saxon England, my favourite. Can we get another crusade into Mexico, Norman?

Interesting thought- if Constantinople falls to the Turks in this TL, could the King of England then make a good claim to take over the mantle of Head of the Orthodox Church? London as the Third Rome?

Absolutely, Harold had been excommunicated by Alexander II because of the impact of Alexanader's tutor, Lanfranc who was very favorably disposed to the Norman cause. In addition, Harold's brother and another relative (a cousin??) had actually been kidnapped by the Norman Archbishop of Cantubury and taken to Normandy where they remained for years. It was when Harold was there negotiating for their release that William was able to extract the promise (under duress) that Harold would support WIlliam's claim to England.

All in all, there was no love lost between Harold and the RC Church. I think it highly likely that if Harold had won at Hastings, England and the Church would have had a very rocky relationship for years.