ATL you'd like to live in
- Thread starter Raymann
- Start date
I like one where Paine winds up as president. The war lasts four years longer and so many slaves flee to one side or the other that slavery just becomes impractical. No French revolution because we fight alone and the French government doesn't get overstretched. We get Canada except for Newfoundland, and of course, Florida was still British when we won independence in 1785.
Hamilton winds up with Treasury and tariffs are limited to ten percent, flat, on imports and exports. This pays for the army, the navy, and the university. We have a trimetallic currency. Most people do day to day business in copper, silver is mostly used by people in the merchant marine who have to deal with Moslem, Hindi, and Chinese trade, and gold is used for trade with Europeans.
I don't know who should control the navy. The navy is designed as a cruiser navy to destroy the trade of enemy countries, specifically England's. It is not designed to slug it out in line of battle in home waters. The large cruiser navy goes around the world exploring, mapping, pirate suppressing, etc. We have a huge merchant marine.
Jefferson runs the university in the national capital of Philadelphia and it gets ten percent of the federal budget, or one percent of imports and exports. The University is forbidden to teach theology or law, and explicitly directed to study agriculture, geology, manufactures, technology, etc. He also runs the national library and the patent office.
Greene gets the Army and winds up mostly doing Indian relations. We actually pay the Indians for their land instead of stealing it. Not likely, but I can dream. He controls the land expeditions we send to explore all of the continent. They also do the geological expeditions.
Adams runs the State Department. He spends all his time dealing in European affairs and making sure we stay out of them. He doesn't really do much with the rest of the world, because that's the navy's problem. He builds a world wide intelligence network and keeps us out of trouble.
New York is split between the Loyalist downstate and the Patriot upstate areas. All the interior drainage is dedicated to new states, including western New York and Pennsylvania.
Each state gets one senator, and there are nineteen states. Georgia, South Carolina, North Carolina, Virginia, Maryland, Delmarva, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Long Island, Hudson, Connecticutt, Rhode Island (extending to what is now Maine), Massachusetts, New Hampshire, Vermont (with all of New York that drains north), Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, Quebec, and Ontario.
New states follow at a brisk pace, about one every five years. Florida, Kanawha, Erie, Cumberland, Ohio, Tennessee, Mobile, New Orleans, etc.
We buy Louisiana from Spain eventually. Then we buy California and the Colorado watershed. Then we buy Alaska. This happens about every twenty years.
Paine sets the two terms of five years tradition. After America has been set on the path it's easiest for Washington and Adams and Madison and the others to continue. There isn't as much infighting between Burr, Jefferson, and Hamilton because there isn't as much to fight about.
Paine appointed the Supreme Court to defend individual rights, and the consensus continues to go that way because universal voting means that the whole rich/poor infighting doesn't happen. Adam Smith's work is more widely read and understood, too, since there is four more years before the war ends for political climate to change.
Also, the longer war hurt the upper class more because they owned the properties that were more lootable by both sides. They also lost their slaves and indentured servants, and during the war they got their real estate confiscated by one side or the other, temporarily. What they got back wasn't in very good condition after the war.
Florida, Mobile, and New Orleans wind up as black majority states. Nobody cares. Eventually Texas and Colorado are also black majority. Again, nobody cares. It's too hot and malarial for settlement by white people without slaves to do the work.
Technological progress is far more rapid. This wasn't really planned. It just happened that as America grew, the navy and the university got more money every year. More money for the university attracts more students and professors. More money for the navy produces more agricultural and mineral specimens. Import substitution brings in lots of different types of craftsmen, and technology spreads and cross fertilises.
People like Winchester, Watt, and Faraday tend to migrate to America for the positions offered. This leads to America becoming the technological capital of the world as sort of a byproduct.
The coal mines of Pennsylvania cause steam railroads to be developed sort of as an accidental byproduct of horse drawn mining railroads. Philadelphia is rapidly connected to the Ohio river, and then the railroad goes north to lake Erie. After that it just spreads up and down the coast, and down the Ohio around the rapids. Steam boats take cargo to New Orleans.
Technological progress spreads in sort of quicktime, far ahead of population because the US trades around the world and new products are more profitable than old products with competition from old connections that the European countries built up over the last few hundred years. This also hurts Britain because they would have stayed at home as in OTL if not for the US sort of bribing them to immigrate with university positions.
The world trading empire that the US builds so quickly overwhelms and forecloses the kinds of empires that the Europeans built because the US is always there first. The navy doesn't stay here to defend the US because it is too far away to be invaded, let alone defeated, which is also why we have such a multiocean presence.
Without the Napoleonic wars to force consolidation, Europe stays in unconsolidated countries. Russia and France and Austria-Hungary and Spain and Britain and the Netherlands and the Ottoman Empire are the great powers in Europe, but plenty of little countries still exist.
Lots of little colonies are all over the world and still in the hands of the original owners, instead of Britain sort of scooping them up. Australia is pretty much the only colony as in OTL. The Americans got to New Zealand too quickly for the British to take over.
Hamilton winds up with Treasury and tariffs are limited to ten percent, flat, on imports and exports. This pays for the army, the navy, and the university. We have a trimetallic currency. Most people do day to day business in copper, silver is mostly used by people in the merchant marine who have to deal with Moslem, Hindi, and Chinese trade, and gold is used for trade with Europeans.
I don't know who should control the navy. The navy is designed as a cruiser navy to destroy the trade of enemy countries, specifically England's. It is not designed to slug it out in line of battle in home waters. The large cruiser navy goes around the world exploring, mapping, pirate suppressing, etc. We have a huge merchant marine.
Jefferson runs the university in the national capital of Philadelphia and it gets ten percent of the federal budget, or one percent of imports and exports. The University is forbidden to teach theology or law, and explicitly directed to study agriculture, geology, manufactures, technology, etc. He also runs the national library and the patent office.
Greene gets the Army and winds up mostly doing Indian relations. We actually pay the Indians for their land instead of stealing it. Not likely, but I can dream. He controls the land expeditions we send to explore all of the continent. They also do the geological expeditions.
Adams runs the State Department. He spends all his time dealing in European affairs and making sure we stay out of them. He doesn't really do much with the rest of the world, because that's the navy's problem. He builds a world wide intelligence network and keeps us out of trouble.
New York is split between the Loyalist downstate and the Patriot upstate areas. All the interior drainage is dedicated to new states, including western New York and Pennsylvania.
Each state gets one senator, and there are nineteen states. Georgia, South Carolina, North Carolina, Virginia, Maryland, Delmarva, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Long Island, Hudson, Connecticutt, Rhode Island (extending to what is now Maine), Massachusetts, New Hampshire, Vermont (with all of New York that drains north), Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, Quebec, and Ontario.
New states follow at a brisk pace, about one every five years. Florida, Kanawha, Erie, Cumberland, Ohio, Tennessee, Mobile, New Orleans, etc.
We buy Louisiana from Spain eventually. Then we buy California and the Colorado watershed. Then we buy Alaska. This happens about every twenty years.
Paine sets the two terms of five years tradition. After America has been set on the path it's easiest for Washington and Adams and Madison and the others to continue. There isn't as much infighting between Burr, Jefferson, and Hamilton because there isn't as much to fight about.
Paine appointed the Supreme Court to defend individual rights, and the consensus continues to go that way because universal voting means that the whole rich/poor infighting doesn't happen. Adam Smith's work is more widely read and understood, too, since there is four more years before the war ends for political climate to change.
Also, the longer war hurt the upper class more because they owned the properties that were more lootable by both sides. They also lost their slaves and indentured servants, and during the war they got their real estate confiscated by one side or the other, temporarily. What they got back wasn't in very good condition after the war.
Florida, Mobile, and New Orleans wind up as black majority states. Nobody cares. Eventually Texas and Colorado are also black majority. Again, nobody cares. It's too hot and malarial for settlement by white people without slaves to do the work.
Technological progress is far more rapid. This wasn't really planned. It just happened that as America grew, the navy and the university got more money every year. More money for the university attracts more students and professors. More money for the navy produces more agricultural and mineral specimens. Import substitution brings in lots of different types of craftsmen, and technology spreads and cross fertilises.
People like Winchester, Watt, and Faraday tend to migrate to America for the positions offered. This leads to America becoming the technological capital of the world as sort of a byproduct.
The coal mines of Pennsylvania cause steam railroads to be developed sort of as an accidental byproduct of horse drawn mining railroads. Philadelphia is rapidly connected to the Ohio river, and then the railroad goes north to lake Erie. After that it just spreads up and down the coast, and down the Ohio around the rapids. Steam boats take cargo to New Orleans.
Technological progress spreads in sort of quicktime, far ahead of population because the US trades around the world and new products are more profitable than old products with competition from old connections that the European countries built up over the last few hundred years. This also hurts Britain because they would have stayed at home as in OTL if not for the US sort of bribing them to immigrate with university positions.
The world trading empire that the US builds so quickly overwhelms and forecloses the kinds of empires that the Europeans built because the US is always there first. The navy doesn't stay here to defend the US because it is too far away to be invaded, let alone defeated, which is also why we have such a multiocean presence.
Without the Napoleonic wars to force consolidation, Europe stays in unconsolidated countries. Russia and France and Austria-Hungary and Spain and Britain and the Netherlands and the Ottoman Empire are the great powers in Europe, but plenty of little countries still exist.
Lots of little colonies are all over the world and still in the hands of the original owners, instead of Britain sort of scooping them up. Australia is pretty much the only colony as in OTL. The Americans got to New Zealand too quickly for the British to take over.
Dave Bender said:
Fredrick III doesn't die of cancer a few months after he is coronated in 1888, and he lives into the 20th Century. Wilhelm II is more emotionally mature when he takes the throne in 1919, and by that time, Germany has a government much like that of England, thanks to the tireless efforts of Wilhelm's mother.
The no "George the Younger" tl sounds nice, or the timeline from the book THE GUTBUCKET SPECIAL. USA is on the East Coast, and the Republic of Tejas takes up most of the rest of North America. They are about same tech as us. Perhaps the timeline from the end of GYPSIES. A decentralized nation in what is the US.
Fredrick III doesn't die of cancer
Basically this accomplishes the same end result as my timeline. During Fredrick IIIs reign Germany will drift into a constitutional monarchy, similiar to Britain.
However I think you are giving too much credit to Fred IIIs wife Vicky (Wilhelm IIs mother). Vicky was one of the most disliked people in Germany. I believe that Wilhelm II inherited his abrasive personality from her.
Fred III was no dummy. He lead Prussian forces to victory against Austria-Hungary and France. He was pro British and pro democracy on his own accord. He did not need to be guided there by his obnoxious wife.
Basically this accomplishes the same end result as my timeline. During Fredrick IIIs reign Germany will drift into a constitutional monarchy, similiar to Britain.
However I think you are giving too much credit to Fred IIIs wife Vicky (Wilhelm IIs mother). Vicky was one of the most disliked people in Germany. I believe that Wilhelm II inherited his abrasive personality from her.
Fred III was no dummy. He lead Prussian forces to victory against Austria-Hungary and France. He was pro British and pro democracy on his own accord. He did not need to be guided there by his obnoxious wife.
Start of a timeline
I'm from the US, and I tend to think that a larger but somewhat more decentralized US with fewer "entangling alliances" would be ideal. Here's how I think it might happen ...
Part I
The US fails to destroy Burgoyne's army at Saratoga, and France decides not to assist the struggling colonies.
Still, the British are unable to prevail and in 1784 a peace of exhaustion is reached. The US becomes independent, but smaller than OTL, with Georgia and South Carolina, lower New York and Long Island remaining British. West of the Appalachians, the US gets OTL Kentucky and Tennessee and a little land north of the Ohio, but the British keep OTL Mississippi and Alabama and most of the land immediately south of the Great Lakes.
The lack of French assistance forced the US to rely totally on its own manpower, and by the end of the war almost all of the states have passed laws reforming their militia into a more disciplined fighting force to support the Continental army.
Within a few years, a new US Constitution is approved, with a federal government that is stronger in some ways and weaker in others compared to OTL Constitution. Unlike our Constitution, this one includes specific and detailed provisions for combining state militia with the small federal army.
France's fiscal crisis is delayed, but not averted. In 1795 Louis XVI is forced to recognize the Estates General as a legislature for France. In 1797 war breaks out between France and several other powers. Louis is forced to abdicate and his cousin is put on the throne as a constitutional monarch. Most of Europe is soon at war. Britain joins the anti-French forces in 1798. The French navy isn't as thoroughly purged of its old officer corps as in OTL, so it remains more effective. France and Britain fight tooth and nail for control of the seas.
While Britain is distracted, the US wishes to take the remaining British colonies in North America, which it regards as "unliberated lands" that are still under Britain's heel. State militias are mobilized and beefed up. In London, the British do not take the problem seriously, and add to the tension by seizing US vessels trading with France, impressing US sailors, and tacitly supporting Native American raids on US settlers.
In the spring of 1803, the US declares war on Britain. Its militia armies and federal troops (much more effective than in OTL) strike quickly and fast, seizing New York, most of the Trans-Appalachian territory, and most of Canada west of Quebec City within a few months. Then, building on their success, a force moves down the Mississippi River and seizes New Orleans from a small Spanish garrison. Technically the US isn't at war with Spain, but Spain is an ally of Britain and the US needs control of New Orleans, so that's good enough reason. Shortly after, the Federal government declares war on Spain. US troops also manage to take Quebec City by siege during the winter when the British ships can't reach it with reinforcements.
Britain sends fleets and troops to try and retake its lost territories. The fleet sent to retake New York City, however, meets strong ground fortifications and is then greeted with an ugly surprised - armed US steamboats that were built up the Hudson River. After suffering considerable losses, the British are forced to call off the attack. They also fail to retake Quebec city after a hard-fought action.
In 1805, further British attempts to take New York and an expedition against New Orleans fail. The British and Spanish, still fighting the French, are forced to sign treaties in which the British give up all of their holdings north of the Caribbean except for Nova Scotia and some of the Hudson Bay lands in the far north, while the Spanish cede the entire Louisiana territory to the US.
I'm from the US, and I tend to think that a larger but somewhat more decentralized US with fewer "entangling alliances" would be ideal. Here's how I think it might happen ...
Part I
The US fails to destroy Burgoyne's army at Saratoga, and France decides not to assist the struggling colonies.
Still, the British are unable to prevail and in 1784 a peace of exhaustion is reached. The US becomes independent, but smaller than OTL, with Georgia and South Carolina, lower New York and Long Island remaining British. West of the Appalachians, the US gets OTL Kentucky and Tennessee and a little land north of the Ohio, but the British keep OTL Mississippi and Alabama and most of the land immediately south of the Great Lakes.
The lack of French assistance forced the US to rely totally on its own manpower, and by the end of the war almost all of the states have passed laws reforming their militia into a more disciplined fighting force to support the Continental army.
Within a few years, a new US Constitution is approved, with a federal government that is stronger in some ways and weaker in others compared to OTL Constitution. Unlike our Constitution, this one includes specific and detailed provisions for combining state militia with the small federal army.
France's fiscal crisis is delayed, but not averted. In 1795 Louis XVI is forced to recognize the Estates General as a legislature for France. In 1797 war breaks out between France and several other powers. Louis is forced to abdicate and his cousin is put on the throne as a constitutional monarch. Most of Europe is soon at war. Britain joins the anti-French forces in 1798. The French navy isn't as thoroughly purged of its old officer corps as in OTL, so it remains more effective. France and Britain fight tooth and nail for control of the seas.
While Britain is distracted, the US wishes to take the remaining British colonies in North America, which it regards as "unliberated lands" that are still under Britain's heel. State militias are mobilized and beefed up. In London, the British do not take the problem seriously, and add to the tension by seizing US vessels trading with France, impressing US sailors, and tacitly supporting Native American raids on US settlers.
In the spring of 1803, the US declares war on Britain. Its militia armies and federal troops (much more effective than in OTL) strike quickly and fast, seizing New York, most of the Trans-Appalachian territory, and most of Canada west of Quebec City within a few months. Then, building on their success, a force moves down the Mississippi River and seizes New Orleans from a small Spanish garrison. Technically the US isn't at war with Spain, but Spain is an ally of Britain and the US needs control of New Orleans, so that's good enough reason. Shortly after, the Federal government declares war on Spain. US troops also manage to take Quebec City by siege during the winter when the British ships can't reach it with reinforcements.
Britain sends fleets and troops to try and retake its lost territories. The fleet sent to retake New York City, however, meets strong ground fortifications and is then greeted with an ugly surprised - armed US steamboats that were built up the Hudson River. After suffering considerable losses, the British are forced to call off the attack. They also fail to retake Quebec city after a hard-fought action.
In 1805, further British attempts to take New York and an expedition against New Orleans fail. The British and Spanish, still fighting the French, are forced to sign treaties in which the British give up all of their holdings north of the Caribbean except for Nova Scotia and some of the Hudson Bay lands in the far north, while the Spanish cede the entire Louisiana territory to the US.
There are lots of timelines I would like to live in.
Naturally, any "no Naziism" or "no Cold War" ATL would be nice. A TL where the US got through the great depression without resorting to New Dealism or any other left alternative would be nice. I used to live in Arizona, so I think the "expanded California" or "Greater Texas" timelines are also intriguing.
Naturally, any "no Naziism" or "no Cold War" ATL would be nice. A TL where the US got through the great depression without resorting to New Dealism or any other left alternative would be nice. I used to live in Arizona, so I think the "expanded California" or "Greater Texas" timelines are also intriguing.
othniel
If there is no French and British war in 1793, then Spain survives and keeps it's Empire for a few more years. America buys the Louisiana territory from the broke Spanish government instead of the French.
I picked this ATL because it's the earliest that you can have an America and I'm an American.
If there is no French and British war in 1793, then Spain survives and keeps it's Empire for a few more years. America buys the Louisiana territory from the broke Spanish government instead of the French.
I picked this ATL because it's the earliest that you can have an America and I'm an American.
because the original question is about a TL that I want to live in...Condottiero said:
