Best Case Scenario for the Turkic world?

Rockingham

Banned
Well? How could we see the maximum extent of Turkish Language, and maximum extent of some identifiable "Turkish culture", by 2000 AD? Ideally, such a world shoul be no more then 100 years behind or ahead of OTL's developmental level...

Bear in mind that an Ottoman wank may not neccesarily work. Further conquests in the European, Persian or Arab lands would further dilute The Ottomans, who after all, were not paticularly "Turkish", apart from the last few years of their state.
 

Keenir

Banned
Well? How could we see the maximum extent of Turkish Language, and maximum extent of some identifiable "Turkish culture", by 2000 AD?

please explain what you mean by "turkish culture". the Uzbeks' culture isn't the same as the Khazars and Ughuz or Gokturks.

Bear in mind that an Ottoman wank may not neccesarily work. Further conquests in the European, Persian or Arab lands would further dilute The Ottomans,

how exactly would additional conquests dillute the royal family?:confused:

who after all, were not paticularly "Turkish", apart from the last few years of their state.

for most of Ottoman history, calling someone a "Turk" was akin to calling them a country bumpkin, a redneck.
 

Glen

Moderator
Well? How could we see the maximum extent of Turkish Language, and maximum extent of some identifiable "Turkish culture", by 2000 AD? Ideally, such a world shoul be no more then 100 years behind or ahead of OTL's developmental level...

Bear in mind that an Ottoman wank may not neccesarily work. Further conquests in the European, Persian or Arab lands would further dilute The Ottomans, who after all, were not paticularly "Turkish", apart from the last few years of their state.

I THINK that this is what he's talking about.

Hmmm....I'll go with no Mongol Invasions, allowing strong Turkic nations to develop in Central Asia. A series of peace and trade treaties cemented by dynastic marriages lead to a large Turkic state from Anatolia to Bukhara and beyond....
 

Rockingham

Banned
please explain what you mean by "turkish culture". the Uzbeks' culture isn't the same as the Khazars and Ughuz or Gokturks.



how exactly would additional conquests dillute the royal family?:confused:



for most of Ottoman history, calling someone a "Turk" was akin to calling them a country bumpkin, a redneck.
1) Well, I was more focused on the Turkish language. Are their no shared cultural tendencies among Turkish speaking peoples? If not, its not so difficult for a definably Turkish culture to develop in the age of nationalism(it is my opinion some form of nationalism is inevitable in a devloping, industrialising world), much like a definably German one did.

2)By Ottomans, I meant the state, specifically whatever remnant of Turkishness was left in the state.

3)Lets not argue semantics:D......
 

Rockingham

Banned
mAYBE IF They hade kept their woman blind that wouldn't of haapsefe,.....,,,,,,,,
Oh, its you. I'd block you if I didn't find your posts so deliciously ignorant...


Hmmm....I'll go with no Mongol Invasions, allowing strong Turkic nations to develop in Central Asia. A series of peace and trade treaties cemented by dynastic marriages lead to a large Turkic state from Anatolia to Bukhara and beyond....
Hmmm... yes...

The main difficulty IMO being that Persian culure is in the way....


I have a possibly good idea.... mightn't a Turkish people have replaced the Mughals of OTL in India? Thus "Turkifying" much of India...although population density is a problem

Or alternatively, the Turks convert to Christianity, or at least the Anatolian ones do, and an Ottoman analogue emerges....and assimilates the Christian people inhabiting the lands they have conquered, much like the Muslim Turks assimilated Muslim Armenians OTL.....
 

Glen

Moderator
Hmmm... yes...

The main difficulty IMO being that Persian culure is in the way....

Yes and no. IOTL, the Persian culture would be in decline until revived in the 1500s. Here we could see it overwhelmed and assimilated into a resurgent Turkic culture. So this Turkish Empire would have some bit of Persian spicing it up.

I have a possibly good idea.... mightn't a Turkish people have replaced the Mughals of OTL in India? Thus "Turkifying" much of India...although population density is a problem

Or alternatively, the Turks convert to Christianity, or at least the Anatolian ones do, and an Ottoman analogue emerges....and assimilates the Christian people inhabiting the lands they have conquered, much like the Muslim Turks assimilated Muslim Armenians OTL.....

Either are possible, though requiring very different PODs and taking us on very different developments.
 

Rockingham

Banned
Yes and no. IOTL, the Persian culture would be in decline until revived in the 1500s. Here we could see it overwhelmed and assimilated into a resurgent Turkic culture. So this Turkish Empire would have some bit of Persian spicing it up.



Either are possible, though requiring very different PODs and taking us on very different developments.
1)True, but Persian revived itself after being absorbed by the Arabs, remember.....

2)Could butterflies not cause both?
 

Glen

Moderator
plural. there's a world of difference between Tuva throat-singers and the Republic of Turkey (and any other Turks you might name)

umm....

I'm not the guy to ask.
sorry.

True about the throat singers....

Good to see you again, Keenir!
 
No Rus. Turks settle in Ukraine, conquer Russia and Siberia, assimilate the local peoples and evolve into the largest nation on Earth: The Caliphate of Moskwa.
 
For some sort of a linguistic Turkic world, I say have the Indoeuropeans settle where the Turks settle in the distant past, and let the Turks settle in Europe.;)

The Russia idea could work. They might end up end up as big as OTL Russia or bigger.

If you could somehow end up with a turkic empire in the middle east as well, then it might well become somesort of a lingua franca extending influences around the world.
 
I would just like to point out that large doesn't always equals good. Imagine a senario where the turks take over say Russia. They are bogged down in an everlasting guerilla war, forced to use conscriptions so every young man and woman spend years of their youth in the army if they doesn't die. All the national wealth is spent on the war keeping the country poor and so on.
 
I would just like to point out that large doesn't always equals good. Imagine a senario where the turks take over say Russia. They are bogged down in an everlasting guerilla war, forced to use conscriptions so every young man and woman spend years of their youth in the army if they doesn't die. All the national wealth is spent on the war keeping the country poor and so on.


I hope you're not saying that such thing is inevitable...:rolleyes:
 

Leo Caesius

Banned
Are their no shared cultural tendencies among Turkish speaking peoples?
Well, there's yoghurt, I suppose. They all refer to God with some variation of the word Tenrı, but that's ultimately Chinese. The star and the crescent have become the symbols of the Turkic peoples, apparently due to their associations with both Islam and the traditional folk religion of the Turkic peoples. There's also a kind of shared mythology but I'm not sure how much of that is authentic and how much is of Republican origin.

I have a possibly good idea.... mightn't a Turkish people have replaced the Mughals of OTL in India?
I'm not sure how they could have been any more Turkish, considering that the Mughals were Chagatay-speaking Turks.
 
I think that the biggest problem with having a more extensive area with a "Turkish" language and identity is that historically the Turks started out as steppe peoples, mostly nomadic or semi-nomadic. Generally, when nomads conquered or simply moved into more densely populated civilizations, they tended to gradually mingle with the larger native populations and lose many of the distinctive cultural features that their nomadic ancestors had. Some parts of their language and customs often survive, but they are very mixed with other influences. Meanwhile, the groups that remained nomadic will often spread out over a large area and mix with other nomadic groups, while the language and customs of each local group will diverge over time.

That's more or less what happened to the Turks - various groups of Turks moved into Iran and other parts of the Middle East over several centuries in several waves, and later into India as well. They mostly became Muslim and were heavily influenced by Persian and Arab culture. For example, the Ottoman Empire was considered "Turkish" by Europeans, but its people, culture, and language(s) were actually a diverse mixture of Turkish, Arab, Persian, Greek, and other influences. Meanwhile, the Turkish groups that remained on the steppes mixed with Mongols and other steppe groups, and developed a number of different regional cultures, influenced by neighboring civilizations ranging from Chinese to Russian.

All of this makes it very difficult to keep a unified "Turkish" identity over a very large area for a long period of time. At least, that's how I understand it.
 
the great Seljuk Empire lasts longer, manages to avoid collapse. furthermore, the Naimans dominate the tribes of Mongolia, and assimilate the other tribes, so when the Mongols expand they are speaking a Turkic language instead of Mongolic. those combined would probably been a much more massive spread of Turkic culture and whatnot, throughout the entire world.
 
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