Cleburne's Confederacy

[David S Poepoe]

So tell me what are your thoughts on TLs that run on handwavium?

After the POD I think the author pretty much has free reign over the TL that he/she creates. We shouldn't ask people to write dissertations or to have read a particular book. The TLs that run on 'handwavium' can usually be the more entertaining. We aren't seeking to educate, we are all engaging in writing fiction.

We don't need debates, since without TLs posted we aren't having alternative history. We are just having debates. Events five years after a POD should be different, in varying degrees, than OTL and progressively getting more variable depending upon the application of the butterfly effect.

The first recommendation to a new poster should be to use the search engine and see if they can locate any similar threads and read those and then post. There will always be reoccurring POD threads popping up.

 

[Kung Fucious]

Frankly, you would be far better off posting an ATL of your own creation rather than positing a question that will have this thread quickly devolve into arguments. You will find in alternative history that there are frequently no such things as alternative history on certain topics. Much like predestination, there is only one path permitted by the Thought Police for this particular POD.

But that's not the point of AH. The point is to come up with a plausible POD, and then follow on from their in a logical and plausible manner. Obviously, the further back your POD, the more wiggle room you have, but I'd say that regardless of the time of the POD you've still got (at least) a generation that's still going to be tracked along OTL sociological lines. Hence if someone has a "CSA victorious!" TL that has the South suddenly decide to ditch slavery in 1870 or something, that's not really going to work. If you want to just write historical fiction that's beholden to the author and not history, that's fine, but calling that AH isn't really fair.

My advice would be to tell those who say "not likely" to "up theirs".

That's a very positive and inclusive attitude.

 

[David S Poepoe]

But that's not the point of AH. The point is to come up with a plausible POD, and then follow on from their in a logical and plausible manner. Obviously, the further back your POD, the more wiggle room you have, but I'd say that regardless of the time of the POD you've still got (at least) a generation that's still going to be tracked along OTL sociological lines. Hence if someone has a "CSA victorious!" TL that has the South suddenly decide to ditch slavery in 1870 or something, that's not really going to work. If you want to just write historical fiction that's beholden to the author and not history, that's fine, but calling that AH isn't really fair.

A generation is a good rule of thumb, tho there are situations where changes will come about much faster. War has a high learning curve for a society. I think there is a problem in trying to establish 'plausible' since that would up to the author of the TL. Obviously flying horses and antigravity cars are implausible, but there are no set outcomes.

 

[cpip]

Think about the meeting in which Cleburne made his proposal. After he read the memorandum, General William Walker nearly challenged him to a duel and General William Bate accused Cleburne of treason.

Now there's a bit of an idly interesting POD. Walker challenges Cleburne to a duel; Cleburne shoots Walker dead.

It might not change much -- plenty of other folks will still find Cleburne's idea anathema -- but it might make Cleburne a much more interesting character to later historians, and if Cleburne survives any longer than he did OTL, well, it becomes even more interesting.

 

[David S Poepoe]

That's a very positive and inclusive attitude.

Yes it is, compared to what other's post to virtually bury a TL.

 

[Not Henry G.]

I should probably clarify and change some details.

What I'm basically asking is that, had the South won thanks to Cleburne's proposal (maybe it happens earlier, or the government is more aware of their terrible situation, or whatever) how would they and US be afterward and how would they evolve?

As for the "not likely" comment, I didn't meant that some people disagree about something. It's that a lot of people only care for what was most likely, not for the other available choices, and shot down anything that isn't the most likely option.

 

[Georgepatton]

A lot depends on what they do about it. If they keep their promise, they've got a problem in the form of how ever many tens of thousands of now-free blacks there are who received military training. A lot of Confederate States were not at all open to having populations of free blacks within their borders. You've got to get that population, somehow, invested in the continuation of the Confederacy, or else, well, you've got to not keep your promise. Now, as dumb as trying to clap tens of thousands of military veterans backs into slave irons is, it's not an impossibility that it would be attempted. That would be sticky to say the least.

 

[stubear1012]

Building on Cane River

One POD is more places like Cane River. Basically more settlements of the black children of French planters. After the fall of New Orleans and the sending of white Louisiana troops to other parts of the South, the local black militias become a key part of the struggles between Confederate held Louisiana and Union held Louisiana. As the local black militias became a key part of stopping Union raiders, there may be more acceptance of them in the Transmississippi District and eventually in other parts of the South.

So the POD is more Frenchmen settling in the 1700's along various small rivers in East Texas and Louisiana. Also if my memory is right there were some French settlements in Mississippi and Alabama. The increased number of Frenchmen have more black children with their black mistresses. These children inherit and have their own families. These families become more of the culture in these areas.

I know that there may be holes in this but what do you think?

Stubear1012

 

[TFSmith121]

Yes, and even in Louisiana, where free blacks were not

Well the Free Blacks of New Orleans offered to put a force in the field right at the start of the war, having fought with Jackson in 1812. The Free Blacks included slave owners, and contributed to the State Militia patrols to catch escaped slaves . Their offer was brusquely declined.
Perhaps if their offer had been accepted and black soldiers, albeit not slaves, had performed well there may have been some knock on effects.

Yes, and even in Louisiana, where free blacks were not completely marginalized (as in practically every other rebel state) and/or ordered to leave or face enslavement (as in Arkansas), what was their reception?

Again, without being confrontational about it, the history of the Lousiana Native Guards units and the men who belonged to them (Andre Cailloux, for example) are very interesting examples of where the gens du colour and similar populations lined up during the Civil War ... they are also an interesting example of how neo-confederates will attempt to reverse history to their own ends, to the extent of using actually photographs and records of these men as the basis of forgeries to try and make their "it was about tariffs!" case...

Best,

 

[Fiver]

If the South was going to maintain such a fervent opposition to any hint of abolitionism in such circumstances, you need major PODs to get them to alter their perceptions. And those very PODs will likely prevent the war in the first place.

This is the central problem with the idea if one cares about realism (and most of the published AH's don't).