Columbus turns back

[Peter Cowan]

What if Columbus had turned back before discovering the "New World" ?
Would the Spanish have followed the Portuguese down the West Coast of Africa into the indain Ocean and beyond or would they have concentrated more on the Mediterranean?

I'm assuming the absence of all the Aztec and Inca gold would have resulted in a poorer, less powerful Spain which might have had implications in Northern Europe - a pope less under the Hapsburg thumb may have granted Henry VIII his divorce perhaps.

How would settlement of N America had gone if the first landfalls were in Labrador / Newfoundland ?

How long after would the Caribbean and Central America have been discovered by Europeans?

 

[Flocculencio]

Well, the Brits are going to run into North America at some point- IIRC fishermen from the North Atlantic countries had already been fishing the cod banks off Newfoundland for a while. They just didn't talk much about it in order to keep others away from the fishing grounds.

Also, the most effective route to circumnavigate Africa with a sail powered vessel takes you out into the Atlantic almost to the coast of Brazil anyway. The Portugese were going to run into it sooner or later.

 

[Thande]

All right, let's say North America's existence gradually trickles down by, say, 1550. Call it the same date for the Portuguese running into Brazil.

Question is, what will happen then?

In OTL, Columbus was convinced he'd found the riches of the Indies, and slaves, so the Spanish were willing to build upon his discoveries - and of course the spirit of the recent reconquista of Granada helped fuel up their astonishingly rapid conquest of Latin America.

But the English et al will be landing in relatively cold, miserable lands relatively sparsely populated by 'savages', while the Portuguese will be running into another godforsaken rainforest. Not much chance of gold or other reasons for full-scale colonisation...

The Americas might end up being treated like Africa in OTL, with just a few small European outposts on the coasts until many years later.

 

[Flocculencio]

If it's around 1550 you might well see people fleeing from England on religious grounds, just as they did later on in OTL, what with all the religious turmoil in England in the 16th C. You might see a few Catholic colonies being set up followed by some Protestant colonies.

 

[Tocomocho]

I'm assuming the absence of all the Aztec and Inca gold would have resulted in a poorer, less powerful Spain which might have had implications in Northern Europe - a pope less under the Hapsburg thumb may have granted Henry VIII his divorce perhaps.

The amount of American gold and silver that arrived in Spain during the reign of Charles I/V was despicable. He won the Imperial throne because Castile was enough rich in crops, wool and commerce to secure that. The Italian and Dutch lands were also very rich in the early 1500s. And the Pope fell under Charles' thumb as soon as he won the Duchy of Milan, which was secured after two easy victories in Bicocca and Pavia that were achieved by superior strategy, not gold (the French army had in fact more resources than the combined Spanish/Italian/German).

Charles' reign would be mostly unchanged. Philip's reign... well, that it's more difficult to determine.

 

[Tyr]

True that the English and Portuguese would run into rather crappy land (they'd still plant a few flags and claim it though) but it'd be inevitable before long they head south/north in search of a western passage and find Mexico.

The amount of American gold and silver that arrived in Spain during the reign of Charles I/V was despicable. He won the Imperial throne because Castile was enough rich in crops, wool and commerce to secure that. The Italian and Dutch lands were also very rich in the early 1500s. And the Pope fell under Charles' thumb as soon as he won the Duchy of Milan, which was secured after two easy victories in Bicocca and Pavia that were achieved by superior strategy, not gold (the French army had in fact more resources than the combined Spanish/Italian/German).

Charles' reign would be mostly unchanged. Philip's reign... well, that it's more difficult to determine

He did a lot without relying solely on American gold but there was a slight reliance on it as debt was steadily built up and had to be paid off. By the end of his reign he was really reliant on the shipments to keep the accountants at bay.

 

[Mike Stearns]

Well, the Brits are going to run into North America at some point- IIRC fishermen from the North Atlantic countries had already been fishing the cod banks off Newfoundland for a while. They just didn't talk much about it in order to keep others away from the fishing grounds.

Also, the most effective route to circumnavigate Africa with a sail powered vessel takes you out into the Atlantic almost to the coast of Brazil anyway. The Portugese were going to run into it sooner or later.

True. If all else fails someone will read the Viking Sagas and wonder if Vinland is Asia.

 

[Max Sinister]

Without the Mexican gold, the Spanish economy won't be ruined by inflation.

 

[Darkest]

The discovery of the Americas was a huge event for the history of the world. Had it gone differently, everything would have changed as consequence. More so than other PODs.

So Columbus turns back. The investment was a flop. Have of him what you will, Ferdinand and Isabella do not have their New World and probably will think again when trying to seek a western route to Asia.

There are very immediate butterflies. In 1493, Pope Alexander VI was in conflict with King Ferdinand of Naples over territorial disputes. King Ferdinand was organizing a league against Alexander, including Venice, Milan, and Florence. Spain was asked to join, but in OTL, they got cozy with the papacy in order for the Inter Caeterato be passed to secure their power over the American continent.

No New World, no reason to ally with Alexander VI. Spain could very well join Ferdinand's League. What does that mean for the First Italian War? Who knows. Maybe the same thing, maybe not.

I've always wanted to see a good timeline of this. Make some Portuguese find Brazil in 1527 or so, that seems the most plausible date after Columbus. Especially want to know what happens to Native American civilizations (though probably little will happen).

 

[Smaug]

The discovery of the Americas was a huge event for the history of the world. Had it gone differently, everything would have changed as consequence. More so than other PODs.

So Columbus turns back. The investment was a flop. Have of him what you will, Ferdinand and Isabella do not have their New World and probably will think again when trying to seek a western route to Asia.

There are very immediate butterflies. In 1493, Pope Alexander VI was in conflict with King Ferdinand of Naples over territorial disputes. King Ferdinand was organizing a league against Alexander, including Venice, Milan, and Florence. Spain was asked to join, but in OTL, they got cozy with the papacy in order for the Inter Caeterato be passed to secure their power over the American continent.

No New World, no reason to ally with Alexander VI. Spain could very well join Ferdinand's League. What does that mean for the First Italian War? Who knows. Maybe the same thing, maybe not.

I've always wanted to see a good timeline of this. Make some Portuguese find Brazil in 1527 or so, that seems the most plausible date after Columbus. Especially want to know what happens to Native American civilizations (though probably little will happen).

Assuming that Spain is let down by Columbus, it seems to me that the minute Portugal starts making fat money, Spain will do what it has to do, to get it. Marriage, War, some form of Union. Portugal is too small, and too vulnerable.

Portugal better have Powerful friends, early on, if they hope to survive. Thier isolated geographic position will prevent them from becoming a military power, IMO. I think they would have to hop in bed with the English or the French if they hoped to keep thier autonomy.

 

[Alayta]

With america beeing diycovered the mentioned way, the treaty of tordessilas would not have been made. this treaty had great impact in the way early colonization went!!!



The lands of northern america had plenty of fur to make money of!!!!

 

[Umbral]

Diseases hit the central american empires from the north and the south without conquistadors present to take advantage of them. There is a breathing space to recover before direct contact with europeans occur.

Also, the news of blonde visitors from the east arrives well before the visitors.

The Aztec empire likly succumb to the disease-introduced chaos, the Incas hold and recover.

 

[rewster]

Diseases hit the central american empires from the north and the south without conquistadors present to take advantage of them. There is a breathing space to recover before direct contact with europeans occur.

Also, the news of blonde visitors from the east arrives well before the visitors.

The Aztec empire likly succumb to the disease-introduced chaos, the Incas hold and recover.

Well, the Aztecs will succumb, and someone else will take their place. The Incas will not exactly "hold"... there will probably be civil war just as when Huayna Capac was killed by smallpox in OTL. But they will recover, most likely.