DtF Challenge - Build Your Own Protectorate

[Riain]

Arminger killed so many people deliberately because he was a bloody pyscho, NOT because it was absolutley necessary. He could have saved many more people than he did with a more cooperative approach and still held a firm grip on power. The fact is that he had an idea in is head and was an arsehole and the Protectorate was the result. If he didn't have a preconcieved idea in his head and/or wasn't such a prick his realm could have been much more productive and powerful and he would have a lot of legitimacy to support his riegn.

 

[Sanderford]

Arminger killed so many people deliberately because he was a bloody pyscho, NOT because it was absolutley necessary. He could have saved many more people than he did with a more cooperative approach and still held a firm grip on power. The fact is that he had an idea in is head and was an arsehole and the Protectorate was the result. If he didn't have a preconcieved idea in his head and/or wasn't such a prick his realm could have been much more productive and powerful and he would have a lot of legitimacy to support his riegn.

My opinion exactly, Riain. His immense historical knowledge served him well, but it could have served him immensely more had he killed less, been less ruthless, and pursued more sociable relations with his neighbors. Eventually, expanding might have been a good idea and likely to bring benefits, but trying to supress all his neighbors right away by sword was a bad idea, and he paid for it.

 

[The Sandman]

I'd probably go more for a Tokugawa Shogunate style approach, with a bit less emphasis on oppressing the peasants and a bit more emphasis on controlling the nobility.

Also, I'd establish some sort of very definite ethical code, once the initial necessary depopulation of Portland was over, and do my damnedest to get the younger generation (in particular, the kids of my new nobility, who would be spending a lot of time hanging around in my capital city as unofficial hostages) to internalize and live by it. Try to bring the gangbangers alongside it by playing to their own pretensions of honor and codes of behavior. For the ones who just can't give up on the ol' ultraviolence, well, whack-a-bandit squads will be necessary once the Protectorate gets going.

And peaceful incorporation of the Willamette would be a must. The land's simply too good, and it blocks the path towards future Californian expansion (because California has some damn good land, once its population finishes dying in the wake of the Change).

A system of village councils might be useful later on, as a safety valve for the peasantry (the idea being that those councils could run their own local affairs, and could bring their grievances against that region's feudal lord to me personally or to one of my traveling representatives).

 

[Riain]

If he wasn't such an exploitative arsehole he probably wouldn't have needed to use bikers and criminals. However even if he didn't have to ruthlessly kill so many people he would still have to do some pretty serious tough love, even the bearkillers were very selvetive in who they admitted, leaving others to their own devices.

 

[Sanderford]

If he wasn't such an exploitative arsehole he probably wouldn't have needed to use bikers and criminals. However even if he didn't have to ruthlessly kill so many people he would still have to do some pretty serious tough love, even the bearkillers were very selvetive in who they admitted, leaving others to their own devices.

I'm not saying he should have been 'gentle' here, not by any means. Rulers in the Dark Ages remained in office by being really tough, and in a situation like what is portrayed by Stirling, the same must be truth. I am just saying a less openly violent and ruthless aproach would have been far more effective in the long run.

Sandman, the idea of keeping unofficial hostages is a good one, but also an incredibly touchy issue. Very good idea. I do not really believe I would employ a Middle Ages Japan approach, as it still gives the nobles too much power and leverage for my liking.

I've actually been working on a fiction based on Stirling's work. You know, it might go well here.

 

[Admiral Matt]

Hrm.... I for one would be very interested to see that.

 

[Sanderford]

Hrm.... I for one would be very interested to see that.

My fiction, you mean? Thanks for the interest. I'll see about posting it, and when I do, you will be the first person I inform.

 

[Peter Cowan]

Just as an aside, Juniper wasn't exactly that benevolent. In order to protect her people she was quite willing to drive off / see others starve. Hard times mean hard decisions.
In many ways the state Arminger built was almost admirable and probably no worse than medieval Europe once the initial excesses were played out. Also, there are hints that other, equally nasty, states had developed.

 

[Sanderford]

Just as an aside, Juniper wasn't exactly that benevolent. In order to protect her people she was quite willing to drive off / see others starve. Hard times mean hard decisions.
In many ways the state Arminger built was almost admirable and probably no worse than medieval Europe once the initial excesses were played out. Also, there are hints that other, equally nasty, states had developed.

Indeed. I often laughed at the KacKenzies and the Bearkillers, among others, making bad remarks about the Protectorate, etc..., because in all honesty it looked to my eyes like they were in many ways just as bad. Reasons aside, a crime is crime.

 

[Adept Havelock]

Just as an aside, Juniper wasn't exactly that benevolent. In order to protect her people she was quite willing to drive off / see others starve. Hard times mean hard decisions.
In many ways the state Arminger built was almost admirable and probably no worse than medieval Europe once the initial excesses were played out. Also, there are hints that other, equally nasty, states had developed.

I'll agree she has a ruthless streak, but I don't recall Juniper or Lord Bear outright enslaving their populations, making it a capital crime to leave, or putting the majority of the labor force on near-starvation rations for years after it wasn't necessary. Indeed, the only "slaves" I recall from any of the other groups were the Bearkiller's POW's, and President Thornton's "Infrastructure Battallions". IMO,the description of their treatment is still better than what Norm did to his own folks.

Sure, the Corwinites are worse in some ways than Arminger. To me, that's picking between Mao and Josef.

I guess it boils down to you and I having different definitions of the term "almost admirable". No biggie.

Now, if you're speaking of Arminger's realm after the changes forced by the Meeting upon it, I might agree about it being "almost admirable".

Havel and Sam were right. Arminger was nothing more than a D&D geek who was dumb enough to model his society on the French nobility.

Indeed. I often laughed at the KacKenzies and the Bearkillers, among others, making bad remarks about the Protectorate, etc..., because in all honesty it looked to my eyes like they were in many ways just as bad. Reasons aside, a crime is crime.

If I may ask, what crimes? The only thing I can come up with is they refused to starve their own by handing their supplies over to the State Gov. before the collapse, and Barstow's theft of the wagons from the museum. In my book, neither of those is anywhere close to driving out refugees, enslavement, supporting banditry, etc. What crimes did you feel equaled Armingers?

 

[Sanderford]

If I may ask, what crimes? The only thing I can come up with is they refused to starve their own by handing their supplies over to the State Gov. before the collapse, and Barstow's theft of the wagons from the museum. In my book, neither of those is anywhere close to driving out refugees, enslavement, supporting banditry, etc. What crimes did you feel equaled Armingers?

My apologies if I spoke unclearly. What I intended to say was that in some moments, it seemed like Havel and MacKenzie were capable of being just as heartless as Arminger, though such was rare and usually with a good ending in mind. Even so, evil is evil, regardless the cause.

I think I read in one of the books something to the affect that the one fact making Mike Havel and Norman Arminger different was that Havel had a consience.

I was trying to speak more about capability than intentand so forth. Havel's intentions were usually pretty much good, and the same with Juniper's. One instance without any redeeming cause or reason, however, was when Signe made an attempt to get Juniper's son killed.

 

[Blackbeard]

I would go for a more end-of-the-Han-era style feudalism, with some changes. First, I would gather my forces. At first it would be any public servants and any and all military forces I can find. After having brought them under my wing, I would make the Portland area know that a new protection force was established. Then it would be all out war with the gangs until I could get leaders to have a sit down. At this sit down I use a carrot and stick routine to get the gangs to settle outside Portland. I take over the city as the gangs set up vassal states. Once take-over is complete, I'd start public improvements again, and open enlistment stations. After the people warm up to me (the gangs should be at least set in their settlements) I will start conscription, and soon after instate mandatory military service. Once the gang states rebel ( I know it would happen, it's their nature) I use the large army to crush resistance. After defeating the gang lords I would recruit most of their members into my army. I might keep one gang alive, to eventually transform into a policing force. The vassal states become provinces/municipalities/counties, and I instate new nobles there from my close advisers. After gathering a large military force, I would crush any resistance in Oregon. I mean burn and kill and force to join if you resist. I would establish myself as fucking rex imperator, and there would definitely Big Brother-esque posters. After this reign of fire, I would establish more provinces, instate more nobles, and then turn to public improvement across the land. During this time I would feed recruits into the new police force, who in turn would take care of many responsibilities for me, namely keeping criminals in check, seeing to public improvement, patrolling the borders, establishing prisons (they'll get funding), and work gangs. Using the work gangs and conscripted and voluntary civilians, I would build fortresses and castles. The police force would also hold the judiciary system within it. And to top it off we will distribute the law in poster form throughout the country.