Education Stops Fall of Rome

Hendryk

Banned
Interesting premise. Now, for the written word to really spread around, having paper will help. So you need to find a way to bring the invention over from China; once that's done, you're on a roll.

As well as giving Rome a small boost in technology, I think you would also need to create certain reforms in the government, so the Empire would be less prone to military coup d'etats, and of course, cultist infiltrations.
A dedicated clerical class for the Roman empire... that would be great. I've long thought that Stoicism could become an analog to Confucianism.
 
That is precisely what I am looking for: plausible scenarios for reforms of any type, that allow education and technology to spread. Printing is a logical start, because it is consistent with the metalworkng and craftsmanship of the time.

Perhaps the leadership will learn the value of a "think tank," where innovators can discuss and practice their ideas. Glass blowing becomes common after 200 AD OTL and perhaps experiments in chemical science are developed. Perhaps the Empire will support these fledgling scientists the way Germany, in two world wars, supported theirs.

China had paper circa 200 AD OTL. It may take another POD, perhaps on the Chinese side, to bring the cultures together, enough to exchange technology.
 

Hendryk

Banned
China had paper circa 200 AD OTL.
Even earlier in fact. Traditionally, the invention of paper is attributed to Cai Lun in 105 CE, but in fact it was around before him.

And while this may be premature at this point in your TL, it's worth mentioning that with paper comes the possibility of lighter-than-air flight. In China, the idea of filling a paper ballon with hot air was first exploited by Zhuge Liang, who used it as a signalling device for his armies (the Kongming lanterns are named after him). While he never tried to use it for transport, perhaps the Romans might after a while. And it bears mentioning that in OTL, the Montgolfier brothers started out as paper manufacturers.
 
You'd need to change the entire social structure and cultural outlook of the Roman civilisation for printing to have an effect other than a curiosity. There was simply no impetus for innovations to conserve manpower- labour was dirt cheap thanks to slavery and a (for the available technology) high population. Such advances are only put to use when there is a labour shortage (like in early medieval times, when the area of the former Roman Empire held more than 100 million people less than at its heyday, or in Late Medieval/Renaissance times, when plague and the beginning of the little ice age had shrunk Europes population.)

Second, the Empire was agrarian based, with far less emphasis on trade than in later time. Those 30% literates or so are about everyone who can make use of letters. A field worker doesn't need to read or write. Control over the written word was far more important to the Emperors than spreading it wider through the population. Someone brought the example of Puritan England stressing reading. Apart from the religious causes, which just aren't there in pagan Rome- English Puritanism also caused the civil war. Increased literacy also makes it easier to spread subversive ideas and weaken censorship. Not something the Empire might look favorable upon.

As for conquering northern Europe- what is there to conquer? The Empire was already hard to keep together. Not because of any seperatism- even the invading barbarians who brought Rome down in the end didn't originally want seperate Kingdoms- they just wanted to live in the Empire, with its luxuries and superior culture, preferentially as top dogs- but because usurpation was more or less the accepted method of succession, and there was almost always someone somewhere at least plotting to overthrow the Emperor militarily, if not actively campaigning. A bigger Empire would mean less central control over the distant provinces, making it easier for local strongmen to assemble armies.
On the other hand the Empire had reached its maximum borders. In the south the Sahara, in the north the woods of Germania and the Caledonian highlands, in the east Persia, which was too strong to conquer, barring the only route Rome had to expand. Rome's rule was based on the cities- or some equivalent, like the Gaulish oppida. Northern Europe didn't have cities, or even small towns. It also had abominable climate (from a Roman perspective), not much to loot save a few baubles and slaves, and the locals were hard to keep down.
This had something to do with the less stratified and more egalitarian social structure of the tribes beyond the Limes. Unlike the Celts, Italians, Greeks and Orientals, the Germans did not have an institution of absolute rule, either by a despot or the nobility as such. Varus failed because he didn't acknowledge that, couldn't acknowledge it, in fact.
Rome could only hold sway where there were population centers to keep down with their Legions, a local elite to bribe and coopt, and a mass of proles who didn't count politically. There was no way to deal with an independent-minded, dispersed population. Same problem the Brits had in the US war of independence. Same effect. They could pacify the tribes for a time with 'police actions' (or bribes), but they couldn't conquer them, all along the northern frontier from Germania's woods to the Skythian steppes.
 
Even earlier in fact. Traditionally, the invention of paper is attributed to Cai Lun in 105 CE, but in fact it was around before him.

And while this may be premature at this point in your TL, it's worth mentioning that with paper comes the possibility of lighter-than-air flight. ......While he never tried to use it for transport, perhaps the Romans might after a while..

"Transport?" Otherwise known as "drifting helplessly?" :D

Although, one does wonder what the experience of regular trips up to a few thousand feet up might do to early concepts re the nature of the atmosphere, geography, the landscape, maps, etc...

Bruce
 
You'd need to change the entire social structure and cultural outlook of the Roman civilisation for printing to have an effect other than a curiosity. There was simply no impetus for innovations to conserve manpower- labour was dirt cheap thanks to slavery and a (for the available technology) high population.

Thank you for bringing up this point. Rome didn't fall because of a lack of knowledge, Rome fell (among a whole lot of other reasons) because the basis for much of its power was slavery and as we know today, the more power you consume, the wealthier you are. To make a very complicated issue simple, various nobles and merchants got greedy, tried to buy goths who didn't want to be sold, and the whole thing started unravelling beginning at Adrianople. Once the idea that Rome could be beaten was floating around, it was just a question of time.

Second, the Empire was agrarian based, with far less emphasis on trade than in later time. Those 30% literates or so are about everyone who can make use of letters. A field worker doesn't need to read or write. Control over the written word was far more important to the Emperors than spreading it wider through the population.

Very good points, even an invention like the printing press needs something more than the invention, it needs to be in the right place and time. Unless you can come up with a reason, it might get invented and never used for anything more than printing patterns on cloth.
 

Faeelin

Banned
Yes by late empire when it really no longer mattered. And even then its still not the same. The only way for a something that large to stay together is to make most of its inhabitants WANT to stay together.

I'm sorry, could you explain this better? I don't follow.
 
If the serendipitous discovery for the concept of creating printing presses leads to the building of additional libraries, then won't some of those libraries start being used as unofficial school-houses? Perhaps socially or economically ambitious slaves, freedmen or enterprising citizens, and perhaps their offspring as well, begin frequenting those second-hand libraries to develop the skills and education they may need for upward social mobility? Would these new ad-hoc institutions consider finding a monopoly for this new trend? Soon, could the Roman authorities come to recognize this new development, and begin to create more formal institutions?
 
true, but the western empire fell when it did because it had outstripped it's resources.
When the western empire started its decline, the majority of the Empire's land outside of Italia was still wilderness, in the real meaning of the word. So there was more land to exploit. Very simple technologies like heavy plows, grindstones, and soap were unknown, so the land could have been exploited much more efficiently. Lack of resources was not the problem; the problem was that Rome was no longer better than the average barbarian society at organizing and allocating its resources.
 
Erm, they did use soap. The Romans used olive oil as a cleansing agent, but the Celts and Germanics had been using animal fat to make soap for centuries.
 
No grindstones? They were known in ancient Egypt. The Romans had no water or wind mills, so used muscle power, which was cheap. Heavy plows? They are not needed in the mediterranean basin, mostly for the heavier soils of central and northern Europe.
Sure, there were resources. But as in every pre-industrial society, transport was the problem. Even on Roman roads, land transport is not viable except on a purely local level or luxury goods. That's why there were no applied inventions to save manpower, but to save material. Like concrete, you save cut stone, which has to be transported.
The proposed changes would only work with modern attitudes and beliefs. The Romans were not a society worshipping progress and innovation like ours is.
I fail to see how increased literacy would help the Empire. It was already getting over-administrated and over-regulated. And ambitious slaves, freedmen and proles getting literate? Do you really think this and 'upwards social mobility' would be seen as a good thing by the powers that be????
 

Hendryk

Banned
"Transport?" Otherwise known as "drifting helplessly?" :D
Well, I meant manned flights. The Chinese didn't try those, but the Romans might. An obvious use of captive balloons is military reconnaissance; in OTL, they began being used to that purpose just over a decade after being invented.
 
I fail to see how increased literacy would help the Empire. It was already getting over-administrated and over-regulated. And ambitious slaves, freedmen and proles getting literate? Do you really think this and 'upwards social mobility' would be seen as a good thing by the powers that be????

Well it did happen on a very limited scale in that era. Also, are you saying that the authorities would be in the mindset to deliberately curtail mass education? Until the Christian Era, upward social mobility often happened, examples being literate freedmen, whom became secretaries or businessmen after their manumission. Same goes for anyone with brains and talent. While the Roman nobility were as contemptous with upstart proles as any other elitist group, its not as if they actively passed laws to prevent people from promoting themselves to a new social status.
 

Hendryk

Banned
While the Roman nobility were as contemptous with upstart proles as any other elitist group, its not as if they actively passed laws to prevent people from promoting themselves to a new social status.
Plus the Roman government would find a practical advantage to widespread literacy: a larger pool of potential civil servants. Literate commoners make better clerks than scions of the aristocracy, let alone members of a religious clergy, both of which have preexisting loyalties that may lead to conflicts of interests.
 
Precisely. A class of literati neutral from the ambitions of individual noble families and religious cults would be a major boon to the future administration to the Roman Empire. Even if the barbarian nations manage to succeed in carving out kingdoms for themselves in the west after this prodigious increase of literacy, these guys would do a far better job of preserving Roman ideals and culture than the Christian Church ever did.
 
I picked the early second century to start this thread to give Rome time to develop internally and develop the critical mass needed to avert its fall.

One important component of a more enlightened Rome involves contact with China and its developments, but how? The steppes of Asia are too hostile for a Marco Polo type journey at this time. There are no internal rivers for a Lewis & Clark type expedition. And neither China nor Rome are likely to sail all the way to each other's empire.

It may be a stretch, but here is my idea for how the two civilizations can meet. Rome sends out an exploratory coastal regatta from the Persian Gulf to eventually explore the coast of India. China does the same, sending boats with scholars and craftsmen south and west.

When the two exploration parties meet, they will see people quite racially different from anyone they saw before. It will be obvious these parties traveled a long, long way. They dock and set up camp on the Indian subcontinent. There will be no hostility; only a desire to exchange information.

The two expeditions spend time, perhaps a year or more, learning each other's ways, languages, writing, and yes, the process to make PAPER.

The parties eventually break for return, but some of the Romans go to China and some of the Chinese go to Rome.

As for what year, I would say early third century. The POD might be radical, but so was Columbus.
 
One important component of a more enlightened Rome involves contact with China and its developments, but how? The steppes of Asia are too hostile for a Marco Polo type journey at this time. There are no internal rivers for a Lewis & Clark type expedition. And neither China nor Rome are likely to sail all the way to each other's empire.

It may be a stretch, but here is my idea for how the two civilizations can meet. Rome sends out an exploratory coastal regatta from the Persian Gulf to eventually explore the coast of India. China does the same, sending boats with scholars and craftsmen south and west.

When the two exploration parties meet, they will see people quite racially different from anyone they saw before. It will be obvious these parties traveled a long, long way. They dock and set up camp on the Indian subcontinent. There will be no hostility; only a desire to exchange information.

The two expeditions spend time, perhaps a year or more, learning each other's ways, languages, writing, and yes, the process to make PAPER.

The parties eventually break for return, but some of the Romans go to China and some of the Chinese go to Rome.

Rome may be somewhat distracted at that point. But anyway, you can have it easier:

Roman expedition travels by grain ship to Alexandria, up the Nile by barge, then along the desert caravan route (secured by garrison posts) to Leuke Kome on the Red Sea. From there, they take a merchant ship via Sokotra to Taprobane off the Southern Indian coast. They will need to pick up local interpreters and book passage on native ships, but their journey will be along established sea routes through the Malay archipelago up to Thinai - THree Kingdoms era Wu.
 

Valdemar II

Banned
A possiblity is also that greater Roman prosperity spread to Germania, which create more centralised states, which could potential beat the Huns back and so that we avoid the great migrations. Result a bunch of Roman cultural satellites north of the Donau and East of the Rhine. Not that unlikely the Gothic states should have already begun the growing centralisation at the time of the Hunnic invasion.
 
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