Edward IV’s Second Queen

[isabella]

What would happen if Elizabeth Woodville died for a miscarriage in 1474? Edward IV would have only two small sons and three young daughters and would likely remarry. As we have seen who Louis XI feared Edward IV enough to be quite willing to buy him off, I think pretty likely who the French King will offer his own niece Anne of Savoy (who is 19 years old, and in OTL married only five years later to the second son of the King of Naples) with a rich dowry to the English King

 

[isabella]

Edward IV, King of England (1442–1484) married a) Elizabeth Woodville (1440-1474) in 1464, b) Anne of Savoy (b. 1455) in 1475

1. a) Elizabeth (b. 1466) married Maximilian I, Holy Roman Emperor (b. 1459) in 1484 with issue
2. a) Mary (1467-1482)
3. a) Cecily (1469-1484)
4. a) Edward V, King of England (b. 1470) married Joanna of Aragon (b. 1479) in 1493 with issue
5. a) Margaret of York (1472)
6. a) Richard, Duke of York and Norfolk (b. 1473) married Anne de Mowbray, Countess of Norfolk (b. 1472) in 1478 with issue
7. a) miscarriage (1474)
8. b) Edmund, Duke of Rutland (b. 1476) married Anne, Duchess of Brittany (b. 1477) in 1490 with issue
9. b) Anne (b. 1477) married John, Prince of the Asturias (1478-1498) in 1493 with issue
10. b) George, Duke of Bedford (1479)
11. b) John, Duke of Bedford (b. 1480) married Elizabeth Herbert, 3rd Baroness Herbert (b. 1476)?
12. b) Catherine (b. 1481) married Philip II, Holy Roman Emperor (b. 1478) in 1495 with issue
13. b) Charlotte (b. 1483) married James IV, King of Scotland (b. 1473) with issue
14. b) William, Duke of Ulster (b. 1484) married Elizabeth Hastings (b. 1492)?

 

[isabella]

Any kind peace between France and England is likely to be broken as soon Mary of Burgundy’s death brought the rejection of Elizabeth as fiancée of the Dauphin and her replacement with Margaret of Austria-Burgundy. Elizabeth‘s match with Maximilian would be then extremely likely as Edward was searching another worth groom for his eldest daughter and in OTL wedding negotiations for them were already started before Edward IV’s death and Edward V’s removal ended them.
Here Richard of Gloucester will NOT have any interest to use the story of Edward IV’s pre-contract to Eleanor Talbot as that would give the crown to the son of Anne (who had three boys of her own) as an half-Woodville boy would be likely better for him than an half-French one

 

[Dagoth Ur]

In this case the pre-contract might not even be revealed. Robert Stillington might only have revealed it to offer Richard a way to remove the disastrous Woodville mismanagement of the nation and the common wealth. With Elizabeth death, like 90% of the impediment to peace in England is removed and Stillington will rest easy.

 

[isabella]

In this case the pre-contract might not even be revealed. Robert Stillington might only have revealed it to offer Richard a way to remove the disastrous Woodville mismanagement of the nation and the common wealth. With Elizabeth death, like 90% of the impediment to peace in England is removed and Stillington will rest easy.

Elizabeth’s brother and younger son would still be the people closest to Edward V, BUT Elizabeth and her family were NOT the true problem neither for England or for Richard. I guess who he would believe too risky using that story, specially with Elizabeth already married to Maximilian

 

[Rose’s War]

Edward IV, King of England (1442–1484) married a) Elizabeth Woodville (1440-1475) in 1464, b) Anne of Savoy (b. 1455) in 1476

1. a) Elizabeth (b.1466) married Maximilian I, Holy Roman Emperor (b.1459) in 1484 with issue
2. a) Mary (1467-1482)
3. a) Cecily (1469-1484)
4. a) Edward V, King of England (b.1470) married Joanna of Aragon (b.1479) in 1493 with issue
5. a) Margaret of York (1472)
6. a) Richard, Duke of York and Norfolk (b.1473) married Anne de Mowbray, Countess of Norfolk (b.1472) in 1478 with issue
7. a) miscarriage (1475)
8. b) Edmund, Duke of Rutland (b.1476) married Anne, Duchess of Brittany (b.1477) in 1490 with issue
9. b) Anne (b.1477) married John, Prince of the Asturias (1478-1498) in 1493 with issue
10. b) George, Duke of Bedford (1479)
11. b) Catherine (b. 1480) married Philip II, Holy Roman Emperor (b.1478) in 1495 with issue
12. b) John, Duke of Bedford (b.1482) married ?
13. b) William, Duke of Ulster (b.1483) married ?
14. b) Charlotte (b. 1484) married James IV, King of Scotland (b.1473) with issue

Looks interesting! How come Cecily of York dies though? In OTL she died in 1507.

By Edward IV's death he had been discussing the possibility of Henry Tudor's return to England. It's likely this would be fulfilled under Edward V's reign as Tudor offers him no true threat like he did to Richard III. Perhaps he would wed upon return to England and has one daughter, and that heiress (if he has his lands and titles returned to him) could marry either John or William? It would certainly be interesting to have the Plantagenet-Tudor lines united one way or another.

Also, there's Elizabeth Herbert, 3rd Baroness Herbert (b. 1476), the only daughter of Mary Woodville and the Earl of Pembroke.

So perhaps a Herbert for John and a Tudor for William?

 

[Rose’s War]

Oh, and there's also Elizabeth Hastings, the daughter and heiress of John Hastings, 11th Baron Hastings. She seems to have been married off around 1508 (Henry Percy (5th Earl) and Henry VII appeared to have quarrelled over it), so was perhaps born around 1490-94. So, there would be a bit of an age gap but she is an heiress.

 

[isabella]

Looks interesting! How come Cecily of York dies though? In OTL she died in 1507.

Caught some illness, and died getting replaced by her youngest half-sister as bride for James IV…

By Edward IV's death he had been discussing the possibility of Henry Tudor's return to England. It's likely this would be fulfilled under Edward V's reign as Tudor offers him no true threat like he did to Richard III. Perhaps he would wed upon return to England and has one daughter, and that heiress (if he has his lands and titles returned to him) could marry either John or William? It would certainly be interesting to have the Plantagenet-Tudor lines united one way or another.

Edward IV here lived a year and half longer than OTL meaning who Tudor will be back before his death. Henry Tudor, whatever happen to his paternal inheritance (likely will need to renounce to it) will have his mother’s lands and can always get Somerset as Earldom

Also, there's Elizabeth Herbert, 3rd Baroness Herbert (b. 1476), the only daughter of Mary Woodville and the Earl of Pembroke.

So perhaps a Herbert for John and a Tudor for William?

Oh, and there's also Elizabeth Hastings, the daughter and heiress of John Hastings, 11th Baron Hastings. She seems to have been married off around 1508 (Henry Percy (5th Earl) and Henry VII appeared to have quarrelled over it), so was perhaps born around 1490-94. So, there would be a bit of an age gap but she is an heiress.

They can work… I need to develope more the scenario before worrying for the brides of Edward‘s younger sons…

 

[Rose’s War]

Caught some illness, and died getting replaced by her youngest half-sister as bride for James IV…

Ah, how tragic

 

[isabella]

Ah, how tragic

Yeah, Cecily had still bad luck, only of a different kind than her OTL one.

 

[Rose’s War]

In this case the pre-contract might not even be revealed. Robert Stillington might only have revealed it to offer Richard a way to remove the disastrous Woodville mismanagement of the nation and the common wealth. With Elizabeth death, like 90% of the impediment to peace in England is removed and Stillington will rest easy.

Ngl, I'm not convinced by the whole pre-contract shebang. Seems awfully convenient for Richard III and him seeing an opportunity to gain more power.

 

[isabella]

Ngl, I'm not convinced by the whole pre-contract shebang. Seems awfully convenient for Richard III and him seeing an opportunity to gain more power.

Me neither. Still here Richard would not see the OTL opening, plus his own personal circumstances here are very different from the OTL ones as Edward IV died in October/November 1484 meaning who, if things got like OTL, both George Neville and Edward of Middleham/Salisbury are already dead at the death of Edward IV meaning who the situation of the Neville‘s male line estates is already solved in a way or the other so Richard has no need to grab power for resolve his troubles. Plus Edward V is already 14 and nobody would think who Edward is too young for being crowned or who he need a formal regency...

 

[ordinarylittleme]

Ngl, I'm not convinced by the whole pre-contract shebang. Seems awfully convenient for Richard III and him seeing an opportunity to gain more power.

Same, especially as BOTH parties involved were dead, and NOBODY from Eleanor's family thought to use this pre-contract for their own advantage...

 

[30PrincesAndAKing]

a) Elizabeth (b.1466) married Maximilian I, Holy Roman Emperor (b.1459) in 1484 with issue

Would Maximillian (or his father) really go for this connection? I only say this because German nobles tend to be 'cautious' when it comes to potential 'morganatic' connections (such as Elizabeth Wydeville). I know this trend didn't really begin in earnest until later centuries, but even before the 15th century you do still see traces of it (I've heard that Agnes of Baden's marriage to Ulrich of Heunburg raised some eyebrows due to its inequality, and that was in the 14th century).

Correct me if I'm wrong, though.

 

[isabella]

Would Maximillian (or his father) really go for this connection? I only say this because German nobles tend to be 'cautious' when it comes to potential 'morganatic' connections (such as Elizabeth Wydeville). I know this trend didn't really begin in earnest until later centuries, but even before the 15th century you do still see traces of it (I've heard that Agnes of Baden's marriage to Ulrich of Heunburg raised some eyebrows due to its inequality, and that was in the 14th century).

Correct me if I'm wrong, though.

About what potential morganatic connections you are talking? Elizabeth of York is a ROYAL PRINCESS, the legitimate daughter of a KING. Her mother’s birth DO NOT MATTER, not when Elizabeth is the wife of Edward IV and the crowned Queen Consort of England…
Elizabeth Woodville was a noblewoman exactly as Cecily Neville was.

 

[30PrincesAndAKing]

About what potential morganatic connections you are talking? Elizabeth of York is a ROYAL PRINCESS, the legitimate daughter of a KING. Her mother’s birth DO NOT MATTER, not when Elizabeth is the wife of Edward IV and the crowned Queen Consort of England…
Elizabeth Woodville was a noblewoman exactly as Cecily Neville was.

German nobility counted all of one's ancestors. Sure, father's line was most important, but they preferred marriages to those whose full pedigree was noble/dynastic.

For example (and this is going forward aways in time) Sophia of Hanover didn't want her son to marry (the not yet Queen) Anne, because she didn't like the Anne Hyde connection. She was eventually able to make her peace with the d'Olbreuse connection made by her son's actual spouse, because A) it got him a greater inheritance and B) she couldn't really dissuade him from the marriage anyway. Neither marriage would have been morganatic, but both were seen as being in pretty poor taste.

So it's less that the marriage between Max and Liz would be seen as morganatic, but more that it would have an unappealing connection that might have smelled a little bit too much like a morganatic connection for a superstitious man like Frederick III to care for it. If England brought any tangible diplomatic benefits I don't think anyone would have cared, but I think Frederick would have probably turned up his nose at the suggestion, regardless if Liz was a king's daughter or not (would she really have been called a princess? I understand king's daughters were called 'ladies' in England at the time).

 

[isabella]

German nobility counted all of one's ancestors. Sure, father's line was most important, but they preferred marriages to those whose full pedigree was noble/dynastic.

For example (and this is going forward aways in time) Sophia of Hanover didn't want her son to marry (the not yet Queen) Anne, because she didn't like the Anne Hyde connection. She was eventually able to make her peace with the d'Olbreuse connection made by her son's actual spouse, because A) it got him a greater inheritance and B) she couldn't really dissuade him from the marriage anyway. Neither marriage would have been morganatic, but both were seen as being in pretty poor taste.

So it's less that the marriage between Max and Liz would be seen as morganatic, but more that it would have an unappealing connection that might have smelled a little bit too much like a morganatic connection for a superstitious man like Frederick III to care for it. If England brought any tangible diplomatic benefits I don't think anyone would have cared, but I think Frederick would have probably turned up his nose at the suggestion, regardless if Liz was a king's daughter or not (would she really have been called a princess? I understand king's daughters were called 'ladies' in England at the time).

You are talking about totally different things and times. And, while Elizabeth Woodville’ s father had born quite low, he had been elevated to the peerage long before his daughter wedding and was elevated again to the Earldom after becoming King Edward’s father-in-law. And Elizabeth Woodville had much better blood on her maternal side, as Jacquetta was a minor German/French princess who had remarried down after being widowed by her first royal husband, meaning who Frederick would have little to complain. In any case Maximilian was still based in Burgundy, of which he was regent for his son, needed the English alliance against France and was pretty unlikely to listen to his father’s eventual complains about his second wedding and far likelier to listen to his former stephmother-in-law (who was Elizabeth’s own paternal aunt) than to his father about his remarriage (that in the unlikely case in which Frederick had to complain about Elizabeth’s maternal grandfather instead of appreciating his son remarriage to the beautiful daughter of a King from an extremely fertile family who promised to give him many grandchildren)
In OTL Edward and Maximilian (both quite angry for the fact who Elizabeth had been replaced by Maximilian’s young daughter as fiancée of the Dauphin) were negotiating for Maximilian wedding to Elizabeth when Edward IV’s death stopped that plans and Maximilian had nothing against a York match, considering who he has already long agreed to a match between his only son and one of Elizabeth’s younger sisters

 

[RedKing]

Ngl, I'm not convinced by the whole pre-contract shebang. Seems awfully convenient for Richard III and him seeing an opportunity to gain more power.

Same, I have even read that in the Titulus Regius, the previous marriage contract was the last thing to be mention as to why Richard should be King, as though it were an afterthought. It doesn’t help that literally nobody (as far as I am aware) questioned the validity of the marriage prior to Edward IV’s death.

 

[ordinarylittleme]

Same, I have even read that in the Titulus Regius, the previous marriage contract was the last thing to be mention as to why Richard should be King, as though it were an afterthought. It doesn’t help that literally nobody (as far as I am aware) questioned the validity of the marriage prior to Edward IV’s death.

Yes, and Eleanor's family didn't think to use this pre-contract to their own advantage, while Thomas Butler didn't bitch about being cuckolded, plus the bishop that had supposedly officiated this wedding already had a grudge against Edward IV...

 

[RedKing]

Yes, and Eleanor's family didn't think to use this pre-contract to their own advantage, while Thomas Butler didn't bitch about being cuckolded, plus the bishop that had supposedly officiated this wedding already had a grudge against Edward IV...

I don’t see how the Talbot’s could have used it to their advantage, as Eleanor had no kids with Edward IV and them using it would have gotten them killed under Edward IV’s rule.