Franz Joseph offered the German Crown by the Frankfurt Parliament

What if during the Revolution of 1848, the Frankfurt Parliament decides to offer the German Crown to the Emperor-King Franz Joseph with the understanding that only Austria and Bohemia would become part of the German state and the Habsburg's non-German lands would be reorganised in personal union with Germany. Wikipedia tells me that one of the major obstacles to this was opposition by the Austrian court to the division of the Habsburg monarchy, so perhaps we need some way for a more sympathetic court in Vienna at this time as the PoD. What woudl the effects of this be? Would the other German states accept? Would Franz Joseph asccept? And assuming they do, how are the non-German lands reorganised? I assume that they would remain in personal union but would Dalmatia, Galicia-Lodomeria, and Venetia-Lombardy be separrate kingdoms or would the former two be placed under Budapest's administration?
 
Franz Joseph was very committed to his role as sovereign of various realms. He's probably less, not more, likely to accept than his Prussian omologhe would.
 
Franz Joseph was very committed to his role as sovereign of various realms. He's probably less, not more, likely to accept than his Prussian omologhe would.
According to the OP, FJ would very much continue to be sovereign of the various realms. They would just be administered separately

After all, the Habsburg lands haven't always been administered as a cohesive block. They were (legally, at least) a bunch of states that happened to share a monarch
 
Frankfurt Parliament was in May 1848, Hungarian and Bohemian Revolution was in April 1848. Kaiser Gutinand abdicated in December 1848.

So... To get Franz Joseph offered the crown in Frankfurt, but be able to leave off Hungary (and presumably Italy), Gutinand needs to be able to put down the Hungarian revolt rather than abdicate in favour of his nephew. Since him abdicating was really a ploy of legal hocus-pocus to necessitate putting the revolt down in the first place*, ideally the Hungarians need to not decide to revolt.

Ergo, it would be easier, IMO, to get an abdicated Gutinand chosen as German emperor instead of Franzi. Schwarzenberg would be completely behind it (IIRC he worked until the Punctuation of Olmütz to try and come to some sort of "satisfactory arrangement" OTL, but his aim was Franzi, not Gutinand, and inevitably failed due to Russo-Prussian opposition as much as Palmerston sticking an oar in demanding that Franzi abdicate Hungary to Maximilian).

As a retired emperor, Gutinand wouldn't have the draws on his time that the young and inexperienced Franzi would. And, provided it follows an "orderly" succession, Franzi wouldn't become German Emperor until 1878 (after his dad and uncle have died). In those 30 years, there has likely been a German prince serving as regent/Reichsvikar for Gutinand, meaning that, provided it isn't Wilhelm of Prussia or Ernst August of Hannover (likeliest options would be the grand duke of Baden or Weimar-both known to have liberal tendencies but also not important enough to attempt to usurp the crown) the TTL Second Reich progresses along a far more "liberal" /"constitutional" trajectory than OTL's. By the time Franzi becomes emperor in 1878, even if he isn't particularly interested in moving to Frankfurt (the logical capital) he has an adult son (Rudolf) who he can post there to serve as "regent". It will get around Rudi's OTL objection that his dad never let him *do"anything. Especially since the bureaucracy in Frankfurt will likely object to Franzi being "too autocratic".

*essentially, as king of Hungary he couldn't put the revolt down without violating his coronation oath. Felix Schwarzenberg persuaded him to abdicate in order to do so that between Gutinand's abdication and FJ's coronation oath, he could have a free hand to deal with the rebels.
 
Frankfurt Parliament was in May 1848, Hungarian and Bohemian Revolution was in April 1848. Kaiser Gutinand abdicated in December 1848.
But the Frankfurt Parliament did not decide on the Greater/Lesser German question until October and Schwarzenburg did not announce the indivisibility of the Habsburg Monarchy until a few days before Franz Joseph's coronation. Could the Hungarian Revolt be put down faster and thus have FJ's coronation earlier?
 
But the Frankfurt Parliament did not decide on the Greater/Lesser German question until October and Schwarzenburg did not announce the indivisibility of the Habsburg Monarchy until a few days before Franz Joseph's coronation. Could the Hungarian Revolt be put down faster and thus have FJ's coronation earlier?
FJ wasn't crowned until 1867,more than a decade after Schwarzenburg's death. And the only way the Hungarian Revolt is put down sooner is if it falls apart from inside. As mentioned, Gutinand couldn't put the revolt down without violating his coronation oath. Hence why proposed the alternative I did.

@Fehérvári @Nuraghe @isabella
 
FJ wasn't crowned until 1867,more than a decade after Schwarzenburg's death. And the only way the Hungarian Revolt is put down sooner is if it falls apart from inside. As mentioned, Gutinand couldn't put the revolt down without violating his coronation oath. Hence why proposed the alternative I did.

@Fehérvári @Nuraghe @isabella
Was he not crowned in Austria? Regardless, I meant his accession to the Habsburg thrones on December 2nd, 1848.
 
Framing the developments in Hungary as a "Hungarian Revolt" is a gross mischaracterisation. Until at least October 4th, the Hungarian side didn't commit any anti-constitutional act. The earliest act that could be described as treasonous was when the Hungarian army crossed the Leitha (the Austro-Hungarian border) on the 28th of October, then attacked the forces of Windischgrätz at Schwechat. Still, considering that the Court began to actively endorse the rebel Jelačić (and Windischgrätz united his forces with his), the Hungarians were hardly the ones solely at fault there. In fact, despite the circumstances, the Hungarians tried to stick to legality for a very long time, and fought in the name of King Ferdinand V against the "usurper" Franz Josef all the way until 1849 April 14th (when Kossuth hijacked the legislation and forced through the "declaration of independence" and the dethronement of the Habsburgs).

To prevent the situation in Hungary getting out of hand, I propose the following scenario: Count Lamberg doesn't get recognised on the streets of Pest and doesn't end up getting killed by an angry mob. Within a few days the latest, the meeting between Prime Minister Batthyány and Count Lamberg takes place. Lamberg receives Batthyány's ministerial countersignature for his appointment as Chief Commander of all armed forces in Hungary and provisional Palatine. By this point, Jelačić is already beaten at Pákozd. In hope of receiving support from Austrian War Minister Latour, Jelačić declines to negotiate with Lamberg and the Hungarians and withdraws in the direction of Vienna. Without the OTL shock from Lamberg's death however, the Court in Vienna doesn't stand behind Jelačić, and once the news of Pákozd reach Vienna, he also falls from Latour's favour. At this point, Jelačić attempts to return to Croatia but the Hungarian army catches up to him and decisively defeats his army. The strong Hungarian position allows the successful conclusion of the negotiations concerning Batthány's new government formation, and the situation calms for the moment.

This has some interesting ripple effects. Without Jelačić's appointment as Chief Commander/Military Governor of Hungary and Latour's order to reinforce Jelačić's forces, there's no revolution in Vienna on October 6th. The Austrian Reichstag also would remain in session in Vienna. It is also more than likely that Johann von Wessenberg-Ampringen would remain the Austrian Minister-President for the time being, keeping Schwarzenberg out of the picture. All in all, this also prevents the abdication of Ferdinand I/V, which keeps Archduke John in a powerful position as Viceroy of Austria. Without Schwarzenberg's demands for the admission of "all of Austria" into Germany, the pro-Austrian faction remains more popular in Frankfurt, which also means that Anton von Schmerling remains the German Minister-President.

Without the turmoil in Vienna and the erupting open conflict with Hungary, Princess Sophie's clique would be in a far weaker position and would be unable to force Ferdinand's abdication like they did IOTL. As such, arch-conservative and reactionary forces would remain to be forced working within the new frameworks and combat the liberals and reformers in such context.

All of this could eventually develop into the proclamation of Germany under Habsburg hereditary imperial rule, although it would be Ferdinand to whom the imperial crown is offered, not Franz Josef.
 
I'm struggling to understand the logic of offering the imperial crown to Ferdinand, unless the goal is explicitly to ensure that the constitutional monarch is to have a purely nominal role. Surely any sort of regency managing in Ferdinand's name would be exceptionally weak vis-a-vis Ministers responsible to Parliament. Whatever role was left to the German Emperor seems unlikely to be strong enough to compensate for ceding control of the Habsburg provinces to the constitutional regime.

The idea of Franz Josef or Frederick William IV going Machiavellian and making something of the Frankfurt crown is far fetched itself, but Ferdinand doing the same is really beyond believability.
 
I'm struggling to understand the logic of offering the imperial crown to Ferdinand, unless the goal is explicitly to ensure that the constitutional monarch is to have a purely nominal role. Surely any sort of regency managing in Ferdinand's name would be exceptionally weak vis-a-vis Ministers responsible to Parliament. Whatever role was left to the German Emperor seems unlikely to be strong enough to compensate for ceding control of the Habsburg provinces to the constitutional regime.

The idea of Franz Josef or Frederick William IV going Machiavellian and making something of the Frankfurt crown is far fetched itself, but Ferdinand doing the same is really beyond believability.
People here have a lot of anti Prussian fantasies
 
uh...that's the whole point of alt-history. Otherwise it would just be OTL. And there are no other German dynasties that are exactly offering alternatives aside from Austria or Prussia.

I fully agree with you, furthermore I believe that it is now normal that people have developed a sort of negative prejudice towards Prussia ( whether completely involuntary or not ) given that in popular history it is she (Prussia) who is accused of having provoked both world wars ( even if it is now known that this is not true ), and of being one of the two most barbaric and horrible moments in the history of the German people ( but now largely outclassed by Nazi horror, and I would add rightly so, given the rubbish that the latter have done (1)


1 ) so as not to have to use much worse terms towards them
 
uh...that's the whole point of alt-history. Otherwise it would just be OTL. And there are no other German dynasties that are exactly offering alternatives aside from Austria or Prussia.

I do agree with you here and, although I called it far fetched (and think it is), you could tell a good story about Franz Josef working with the Frankfurt crown. You'd have to be a very creative writer to make me accept the same story about Ferdinand though. No offense intended, I enjoy your speculations about "Frankie".
 
Frederick Wilhelm IV was in favoir to a restoration of the Holy Roman Empire with the Austrian Kaiser as Emperor as long the King of Prussia was the Imperial Vicar.
 
Frederick Wilhelm IV was in favoir to a restoration of the Holy Roman Empire with the Austrian Kaiser as Emperor as long the King of Prussia was the Imperial Vicar.
considering what the role of the Reichsvikar was its not hard to believe that the Habsburgs didn't go for it. Since a vikar's powers were to act as the emperor's proxy in dealing with things in his absence. Ergo, Friedrich Wilhelm would essentially be emperor in all but name.
 
Not to mention the powers that a Reichsvikar had between the death of a previous emperor and the election of a new emperor made him pretty much the "acting emperor". It would've consigned the Habsburgs to the role of a weak figurehead monarch to an overmighty subject
 
considering what the role of the Reichsvikar was its not hard to believe that the Habsburgs didn't go for it. Since a vikar's powers were to act as the emperor's proxy in dealing with things in his absence. Ergo, Friedrich Wilhelm would essentially be emperor in all but name.
Well, yes, but the emperor can choose to be present and so have real power. Actually the main reason of Austria refusal was that they had to keep the non-holy-Imperial lands out of the Reich. Since they will have to accept the Aughsleich in 1866 I think that they could have agreed to having Hungary as an external associate of the reich.
 
I'm struggling to understand the logic of offering the imperial crown to Ferdinand, unless the goal is explicitly to ensure that the constitutional monarch is to have a purely nominal role.
I mean, what exactly would you expect from a primarily Liberal and Reformer-dominated assembly? Also, it might be Ferdinand who receives the crown, but Archduke John could easily remain the de facto ruler as Regent of Germany (which he was IOTL).
The idea of Franz Josef or Frederick William IV going Machiavellian and making something of the Frankfurt crown is far fetched itself, but Ferdinand doing the same is really beyond believability.
Of course Ferdinand wouldn't do that. He would just be swept by flow.
People here have a lot of anti Prussian fantasies
The OP asked for a Habsburg-led Greater Germany. Trying to approach the question from that perspective is not inherently an anti-Prussian fantasy.
I do agree with you here and, although I called it far fetched (and think it is), you could tell a good story about Franz Josef working with the Frankfurt crown. You'd have to be a very creative writer to make me accept the same story about Ferdinand though.
Franz Josef at the time was under the thumb of her mother, so a story centered around either of them would just give us a puppet for a main character. At the same time both scenarios could still be settings for good stories regardless (depending on the themes and focuses).
Well, yes, but the emperor can choose to be present and so have real power. Actually the main reason of Austria refusal was that they had to keep the non-holy-Imperial lands out of the Reich.
Yes, but let's not forget that viewpoint of the Austrian leadership emerged only after Schwarzenberg became Minister-President and Ferdinand was couped by Princess Sophie's clique. A good POD could quite easily change the official Habsburg stance.
 
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