German carrier aircraft

[Gudestein]

Gudestein,

it is with great pleasure that I, on behalf of the committee, am able to present you with this year's Ovaron 97 Memorial Award for Services to Advanced Wankology.

Round of applause please, gentlemen. It was well deserved.

Hmmmm. What a compliment. Must be the thing about Germans having no brain at all.

I would have felt the Literate Fuhrer shuld have gotten it. Who got it last year?

BTW, this is not a TL and my only direct statement here is that GZ might have changed events that IOTL led to a single important torpedo hit by a plane called the stringbag.

 

[Gudestein]

Yes they were F4F-4. And the pilots were not particularly rookies, and the weather not unusually bad (actually better than the average North Atlantic / North sea weather)




That's *not* what I wrote.
And if that's truly what you understood of my sentence, you don't understand my point. I was definitely not comparing the swordfish survivability vs the Bf109 lethality.

My point was that, with 10 figthers (be they zeroes, F6F , Claudes or Fulmars), you'll have severe trouble intercepting whatever is thrown at you.
Too many threat axis, too few planes to do the job.

And don't tell me that with radar and fighter direction the problem would be solved. It wouldn't.
Not without experience (and more fighters), and this experience has a cost.
For the USN the learning costs were the Lexington, Yorktown and Hornet plus damage to Enterprise (twice).
I don't think the KM can afford to pay such prices.


All navies made mistake and had problem to balance their air group and all underestimated the number of fighters needed.
That's not something that only the Germans faced.
But they had only one flattop - and as I stated above, mistakes often cost ships.

I am sorry, that was probably a simplification as well as a misunderstanding.
I did actually interpret it so that there would be no fighters left after accidents. I found that was an exaggeration for the reasons given.
The points clarified here are well taken, but they are also points the RN had not learned at this point in time.

 

[Gudestein]

...how the f*ck do you get that conclusion, given what people have said?
Real aircraft carriers respond to incoming enemy attacks by getting planes into the air as fast as possible, for one; it takes a long time to recover planes to the hangar deck, for two; and for three, the blast could actually damage the launching rails!
Also if you have the aircraft coming up and then being launched straight off, you're not going to achieve the fast cycle times you've been quoting, real world flight elevator cycle times and the time to move the aircraft onto the elevator will cause that. There's a reason why carriers do the deck spot, it allows for a much faster series of launches.

First, I repeatedly stated that I do not consider GZ a good design.
Only capable of sending off some planes that could kill a few swordfish. Or if they carry to few fighters, then torpedo a British air craft carrier?
Second, take a look at the model Oldironside showed.
The launch speed must be much faster as there are 3 planes going off the two catapults at the same time. Joke aside, the area blocked by readied planes is next to the superstructure and the guns here are actually raised.
Most of the time there is a free shot. Not all the time, hence part of the reason I don't find it a good design.

 

[Saphroneth]

Hmmmm. What a compliment. Must be the thing about Germans having no brain at all.

I would have felt the Literate Fuhrer shuld have gotten it. Who got it last year?

BTW, this is not a TL and my only direct statement here is that GZ might have changed events that IOTL led to a single important torpedo hit by a plane called the stringbag.

And what do you imagine might happen if that torpedo hit did not take place?

 

[Shaby]

First, I repeatedly stated that I do not consider GZ a good design.
Only capable of sending off some planes that could kill a few swordfish. Or if they carry to few fighters, then torpedo a British air craft carrier?
Second, take a look at the model Oldironside showed.
The launch speed must be much faster as there are 3 planes going off the two catapults at the same time. Joke aside, the area blocked by readied planes is next to the superstructure and the guns here are actually raised.
Most of the time there is a free shot. Not all the time, hence part of the reason I don't find it a good design.

What you underestimate is that the Germans will be using the ship for the first time ever in combat conditions. They will not have experience. In case they actually sail GZ and Bismarck together, the British will probably react in a different way and send more carriers.

The trouble with carriers is that they are very vulnerable in confined seas. They are especially vulnerable during the recovery or launcing of airplanes. I think most carriers lost in sub attack were actually lost when they were turning into wind to launch their aircraft. And GZ is going to be doing this a lot since it will be necessary to maintain CAP at all times, except at night. KM will not have too much destroyers to spare to keep the British subs at bay. And even if they had enough, the German destroyers lack legs to escort the ship too far out.

 

[Torqumada]

The points clarified here are well taken, but they are also points the RN had not learned at this point in time.

Of course the RN was still learning at this point. After all, no one had actually used carriers in real combat at sea, but the RN had roughly two decades of experience that the Germans did not in aircraft carrier design and deployment. The Germans had many more points to learn and only one carrier to learn them on. Once it's gone, that's pretty much it.

Torqumada

 

[Shaby]

Of course the RN was still learning at this point. After all, no one had actually used carriers in real combat at sea, but the RN had roughly two decades of experience that the Germans did not in aircraft carrier design and deployment. The Germans had many more points to learn and only one carrier to learn them on. Once it's gone, that's pretty much it.

Torqumada

AFAIK the British by the time of Bismarcks attempted brakeout had a good year and a half experience in using their carriers in combat... They pretty much knew what works and what not.

 

[Torqumada]

AFAIK the British by the time of Bismarcks attempted brakeout had a good year and a half experience in using their carriers in combat... They pretty much knew what works and what not.

I was referring to the rough time the Germans were looking at carriers, not the time of the Bismarck's sortie. With that extra time, the knowledge gap is even greater.

Torqumada

 

[marathag]

The trouble with carriers is that they are very vulnerable in confined seas. They are especially vulnerable during the recovery or launcing of airplanes. I think most carriers lost in sub attack were actually lost when they were turning into wind to launch their aircraft. .

I don't know how powerful the GZ pneumatic cats were, but they were based off the Mail ships used in the South Atlantic.

Those were rated at 30,000 pounds, enough to shoot a 4 engined seaplane off the stern, with no wind.

So it's possible the only time GZ would have needed to turn into the wind would be for recovery.

 

[Saphroneth]

I don't know how powerful the GZ pneumatic cats were, but they were based off the Mail ships used in the South Atlantic.

Those were rated at 30,000 pounds, enough to shoot a 4 engined seaplane off the stern, with no wind.

So it's possible the only time GZ would have needed to turn into the wind would be for recovery.

Most any carrier aircraft has to turn into the wind if wind there is, because they need to avoid crosswind and they also need to avoid tailwind. (A headwind is a bugger, because it massively increases the takeoff velocity needed - e.g. a 30 mph tailwind increases the stall ground speed required by that much.)

 

[marathag]

Most any carrier aircraft has to turn into the wind if wind there is, because they need to avoid crosswind and they also need to avoid tailwind. (A headwind is a bugger, because it massively increases the takeoff velocity needed - e.g. a 30 mph tailwind increases the stall ground speed required by that much.)

Yet the USN had midship hangar deck cats.

Hornet kept her hydraulic hangar cat thru the end of the war. Nothing but crosswinds if the ship is moving

 

[oldironside]

Not sure if they'd use these when moving. During the launch in the last photo there doesn't seem to be any wake. For an idea of the complexities of launching with a beam mounted catapult, see the video below.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TsBGPjc8DFE

 

[Carl Schwamberger]

....

BTW, this is not a TL and my only direct statement here is that GZ might have changed events that IOTL led to a single important torpedo hit by a plane called the stringbag.

And what do you imagine might happen if that torpedo hit did not take place?

The pair makes into Brest. The Brits are in a panic not knowing about the battle damage to the Bismarck, or the GZ real capabilities. They become a bit more coherent when air recon reveals the Bismarck has moved into dry dock. As in OTL Bomber Command is directed to help, but with five enemy ships in the French ports the direct is more forceful & makes it clear this is to be a maximum effort.

Bomber command takes losses in this, but as fast as one hit is repaired another is made. The French harbors suffer from the other 9.9% that dont hit the ships & eventually the ships must be moved out of harms way or damage starts accumulating.

This may also cause the RN to redeploy some of their surviving deep water submarines from the Mediterranean to ambush positions off the French littoral.

The British fleet is reorganized & rebased to better deal with a potiential raid or raids by the assorted German ships.

 

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

More likely IMO is the fighters are all used up defending against the carrier in KGV's fleet (and possibly Hood's if ATL RN reactions), so when Ark Royal launches her attack, at the end of the chase, GZ simply has nothing left in the bag. Could be OTL just more dead on both sides.

 

[Gudestein]

What you underestimate is that the Germans will be using the ship for the first time ever in combat conditions. They will not have experience. In case they actually sail GZ and Bismarck together, the British will probably react in a different way and send more carriers.

I think the problem is that you guys think I think the GZ will make a good performance. I do not. But what extra would the RN have to send.

 

[Gudestein]

And what do you imagine might happen if that torpedo hit did not take place?

Most likely a full speed escape to Brest, but possibly, only possibly a second strike with the Germans on full alert and maybe, just maybe, a GZ strike on Ark Royal.
Particularly if all the fighters are close to spent.

 

[Gudestein]

The pair makes into Brest. The Brits are in a panic not knowing about the battle damage to the Bismarck, or the GZ real capabilities. They become a bit more coherent when air recon reveals the Bismarck has moved into dry dock. As in OTL Bomber Command is directed to help, but with five enemy ships in the French ports the direct is more forceful & makes it clear this is to be a maximum effort.

Bomber command takes losses in this, but as fast as one hit is repaired another is made. The French harbors suffer from the other 9.9% that dont hit the ships & eventually the ships must be moved out of harms way or damage starts accumulating.

This may also cause the RN to redeploy some of their surviving deep water submarines from the Mediterranean to ambush positions off the French littoral.

The British fleet is reorganized & rebased to better deal with a potiential raid or raids by the assorted German ships.

There is a good probability that hits will be dealt, but also that many strikes will be inefficient. Furthermore, there may be very little time to act. We don't kow the extent of repairs needed.
Also, Brest was a high priority IOTL.

 

[oldironside]

I think the problem is that you guys think I think the GZ will make a good performance. I do not.

Who exactly are "you guys" and how on earth do you come to that conclusion when we've spent the last three pages detailing her faults and you've spent the time defending her?

I'm starting to think you're trolling us.

 

[sharlin]

Who exactly are "you guys" and how on earth do you come to that conclusion when we've spent the last three pages detailing her faults and you've spent the time defending her?

I'm starting to think you're trolling us.

Nah he's not its just a case of

"I wonder if Axis Senpai will notice me...."

or "I don't want the Nazi's to win. Just the Germans."

or "Sealion is plausable!"

 

[Saphroneth]

Most likely a full speed escape to Brest, but possibly, only possibly a second strike with the Germans on full alert and maybe, just maybe, a GZ strike on Ark Royal.
Particularly if all the fighters are close to spent.

Full speed?
I'm actually not all that sure she had the fuel for that, the hit which destroyed her extra fuel bunker was before the torpedo attack.

In any case. Your view is, of course, that everything goes exactly as OTL until the time the German ship's luck ran out.