Henry VIII dies on Christmas 1536

[cex]

24 January 1536: King Henry VIII avoids injury at the Greenwich Palace Tournament. Anne is still executed after her miscarriage, and the Second Succession Act declares both Mary and Elizabeth illegitimate bastards.

Christmas 1536: Henry, in a bout of frustration and despair after Jane Seymour's Christmas miscarriage, decides to go jousting again. IRL, he and Jane conceived Edward in January 1537. Here, he has his jousting accident the month before, but this time it is fatal...

 

[ordinarylittleme]

24 January 1536: King Henry VIII avoids injury at the Greenwich Palace Tournament. Anne is still executed after her miscarriage, and the Second Succession Act declares both Mary and Elizabeth illegitimate bastards.

Christmas 1536: Henry, in a bout of frustration and despair after Jane Seymour's Christmas miscarriage, decides to go jousting again. IRL, he and Jane conceived Edward in January 1537. Here, he has his jousting accident the month before, but this time it is fatal...

I suppose Mary acceeds then, and marries fast?

 

[cex]

I suppose Mary acceeds then, and marries fast?

Alternatives to Mary:

Princess Elizabeth

James V of Scotland

Henry Brandon, Earl of Lincoln

Henry FitzRoy, Duke of Richmond and Somerset.

How many of the claimants would have staked their claims, and in any event, who would have won? A religious civil war if the struggle gets too protracted, perhaps?

 

[ordinarylittleme]

Princess Elizabeth

Unpopular mother, also a bastard, her claim is not strong as long as her sister lives, also very young and could be raised as Mary's successor if needed

James V of Scotland

Senior male claimant, but a foreign king. I suspect he will marry Mary

Henry Brandon, Earl of Lincoln

He was already dead by 1534...

Henry FitzRoy, Duke of Richmond and Somerset.

A bastard with no strong supporters

 

[Stahlo]

A bastard with no strong supporters

He was also already dead since July 1536.

 

[mickeymouse]

Henry FitzRoy, Duke of Richmond and Somerset.

Fitzroy’s already dead at this point (he died in July 1536), but IMO, if you avoid his death and he lives long enough, he has a chance of getting it, considering the stipulations of the Second Succession Act.

 

[Stahlo]

Also, James is at the moment in France, two weeks away from marrying Madeleine of Valois. That makes him just a bit problematic as a claimant at the moment.

 

[ordinarylittleme]

if you avoid his death

the POD's in Christmas, Fitzroy's death is a granted by then, I think

Also, James is at the moment in France, two weeks away from marrying Madeleine of Valois. That makes him just a bit problematic as a claimant at the moment.

Exactly and so Mary will be crowned before he can do anything

 

[cex]

He was already dead by 1534...

we get KiA bastard with no strong supporters

He was also already dead since July 1536.

Fitzroy’s already dead at this point (he died in July 1536), but IMO, if you avoid his death and he lives long enough, he has a chance of getting it, considering the stipulations of the Second Succession Act.

If Henry instead dies in July 1536 after the passage of the Second Succession Act, could we get King FitzRoy?

 

[cex]

the POD's in Christmas, Fitzroy's death is a granted by then, I think

If both Brandon and FitzRoy are alive by that point, could Charles Brandon have imposed either of them on the throne?

Exactly and so Mary will be crowned before he can do anything

Yes, Catherine and Mary are beloved by the people. However, how many lords will balk at the prospect of swearing their oaths to a reigning Queen? France, Brandenburg-Prussia and Savoy outright forbade the accession of women to the throne under Salic Law.

 

[Hastings]

One possibility if Henry died in 1536 would be to marry Mary and Fitzroy, think it was suggested by the pope during the whole separating from the Catholic church mess. But yeah, Christmas 1536 will be Mary, Anne isn't popular enough to get her daughter. Also Mary is 20, she is an adult ready to rule, while Elizabeth is a toddler. Most people will want the adult, some might find regency tempting but those who would be the most obvious candidates have an awful lot of people who wish they were headless. James has the disadvantage he is rather far from London, it will be decided before he has time to do anything or maybe even know of Henry's death.

 

[Hastings]

They won't balk. Henry VIII was paranoid that the English would not accept a female ruler, but it was actually pretty drama free. The main threats to their rules tended to be other women, Lady Jane Gray, Elizabeth, Mary Queen of Scots. At the end of the day, England is not France where they rejected even having inheritance through the female line.

 

[ordinarylittleme]

Anne isn't popular enough to get her daughter

Anne is also already dead by then...

 

[isabella]

They won't balk. Henry VIII was paranoid that the English would not accept a female ruler, but it was actually pretty drama free. The main threats to their rules tended to be other women, Lady Jane Gray, Elizabeth, Mary Queen of Scots. At the end of the day, England is not France where they rejected even having inheritance through the female line.

At that point England had ONLY female claimants to the Crown. With James V, Lincoln (Brandon) or Richmond (Fitzroy) alive the things are quite different

 

[ordinarylittleme]

At that point England had ONLY female claimants to the Crown. With James V, Lincoln (Brandon) or Richmond (Fitzroy) alive the things are quite different

Lincoln and Brandon are both dead by the POD date, and James V isn't going to know about England's shenanigans before Mary is crowned

 

[Hastings]

England only considered female claimants, but there were male options if they were desperate not to have an actual female. People like Geoffrey Pole who Mary didn't even seem to consider a real threat given she let him return to England.

 

[cex]

They won't balk. Henry VIII was paranoid that the English would not accept a female ruler, but it was actually pretty drama free. The main threats to their rules tended to be other women, Lady Jane Gray, Elizabeth, Mary Queen of Scots. At the end of the day, England is not France where they rejected even having inheritance through the female line.

One possibility if Henry died in 1536 would be to marry Mary and Fitzroy, think it was suggested by the pope during the whole separating from the Catholic church mess. But yeah, Christmas 1536 will be Mary, Anne isn't popular enough to get her daughter. Also Mary is 20, she is an adult ready to rule, while Elizabeth is a toddler. Most people will want the adult, some might find regency tempting but those who would be the most obvious candidates have an awful lot of people who wish they were headless. James has the disadvantage he is rather far from London, it will be decided before he has time to do anything or maybe even know of Henry's death.

Could Charles Brandon have conceivably made his son King, had he lived? The Duke of Norfolk, with an arguably weaker claim that Brandon's, was perenially mentioned as an alternative candidate for King during the Pilgrimage of Grace.

 

[isabella]

England only considered female claimants, but there were male options if they were desperate not to have an actual female. People like Geoffrey Pole who Mary didn't even seem to consider a real threat given she let him return to England.

The Poles were loyal to Mary Tudor.

 

[isabella]

Could Charles Brandon have conceivably made his son King, had he lived? The Duke of Norfolk, with an arguably weaker claim that Brandon's, was perenially mentioned as an alternative candidate for King during the Pilgrimage of Grace.

Not unlikely, still Brandon was loyal to Mary so is likelier who he would have pushed his son as husband for Mary than as her rival

 

[Avrorrange]

If both Brandon and FitzRoy are alive by that point, could Charles Brandon have imposed either of them on the throne?

Yes, Catherine and Mary are beloved by the people. However, how many lords will balk at the prospect of swearing their oaths to a reigning Queen? France, Brandenburg-Prussia and Savoy outright forbade the accession of women to the throne under Salic Law.

Me suspects few lords would balk. They are flat out tired of civil war at this point.