How does WWII go down with an Allied Italy and an Axis Soviet Union?

thaddeus

Donor
even historically there were serious Axis-Soviets talks, derailed by Soviet "ask for everything" demands and so AH reverted to default position.

to achieve the OP, my view something needs to change with Spanish Civil War, either it dos not occur or the Nazi regime does not participate, that event froze Nazi-Soviet relations for the three year period. (and Italy-Germany do not move closer)
I don't think there necessarily needs to be a diverging point in the Spanish Civil War.
that was the event that brought Italy and Germany closer together, they cooperated for three years to aid the Nationalists, while it stalled any agreements or trade deals with the USSR, as they were after all on opposite sides?

know they signed the M-R Pact quickly after the end of the SCW but it was considered (and proved to be) just a cynical ploy.

you are postulating an Axis USSR, how do you think it would occur?
 
that was the event that brought Italy and Germany closer together, they cooperated for three years to aid the Nationalists, while it stalled any agreements or trade deals with the USSR, as they were after all on opposite sides?

know they signed the M-R Pact quickly after the end of the SCW but it was considered (and proved to be) just a cynical ploy.

you are postulating an Axis USSR, how do you think it would occur?
Well I did say Operation Pike and the Allies DOW on the USSR after they also invade Poland. With Italy being bribed into the Allies.
 

thaddeus

Donor
that (Spanish Civil War) was the event that brought Italy and Germany closer together, they cooperated for three years to aid the Nationalists, while it stalled any agreements or trade deals with the USSR, as they were after all on opposite sides?
know they signed the M-R Pact quickly after the end of the SCW but it was considered (and proved to be) just a cynical ploy.
Well I did say Operation Pike and the Allies DOW on the USSR after they also invade Poland. With Italy being bribed into the Allies.
book Operation Pike by Osborn has a short window in which Allies could bomb, between April-May of 1940, just IMO its great effect would be Soviets open the floodgates on supplies to Germany (they don't want the Nazi regime to turn on them but rather continue to pursue their war against France and UK), an invasion of Iran is also possible but they might have been more cautious and just seek to damage the critical Abadan refinery?

the real "bribery" for Italy would be French territories or British ones, too high a price, and for what? more likely Italy remains neutral, if anything they might make an opportunistic invasion of Yugoslavia, that at least they had military planning for.

*of course Italy could still join the Allied side in latter stages of the war, as they did when switching sides per historical*
 
Last edited:
book Operation Pike by Osborn has a short window in which Allies could bomb, between April-May of 1940, just IMO its great effect would be Soviets open the floodgates on supplies to Germany (they don't want the Nazi regime to turn on them but rather continue to pursue their war against France and UK), an invasion of Iran is also possible but they might have been more cautious and just seek to damage the critical Abadan refinery?

the real "bribery" for Italy would be French territories or British ones, too high a price, and for what? more likely Italy remains neutral, if anything they might make an opportunistic invasion of Yugoslavia, that at least they had military planning for.
Say the Hoare-Laval Pact doesn't get leaked and that's what drives Italy into the Allied camp.
 

thaddeus

Donor
Say the Hoare-Laval Pact doesn't get leaked and that's what drives Italy into the Allied camp.
you just argued against any changes to events leading up to and around the Spanish Civil War, now speculating on an agreement that would likely prevent Italy becoming involved in it?
 
book Operation Pike by Osborn has a short window in which Allies could bomb, between April-May of 1940, just IMO its great effect would be Soviets open the floodgates on supplies to Germany (they don't want the Nazi regime to turn on them but rather continue to pursue their war against France and UK), an invasion of Iran is also possible but they might have been more cautious and just seek to damage the critical Abadan refinery?

the real "bribery" for Italy would be French territories or British ones, too high a price, and for what? more likely Italy remains neutral, if anything they might make an opportunistic invasion of Yugoslavia, that at least they had military planning for.

*of course Italy could still join the Allied side in latter stages of the war, as they did when switching sides per historical*

Depend, Italy and the URSS basically have the same objective aka control of the balkans, so if the Stalin join Germany and try to get control of Romania and other balkan territory Benny will have a lot of objections
 
you just argued against any changes to events leading up to and around the Spanish Civil War, now speculating on an agreement that would likely prevent Italy becoming involved in it?
Mussolini was going to support a fellow Fascist in Franco regardless.
 

thaddeus

Donor
it wouldn't take too much effort to get Italy involved in a side conflict with Yugoslavia, which would basically tie them up completely (at least for a time)
 

McPherson

Banned
You can't blitz through the Alps.
Operation Axis.

It is an illusion to believe that one can work out a plan of campaign far in advance and then carry it through to the end. The first collision with the enemy’s main body, and the outcome of that clash, creates a new situation (Lage).

Usually shortened in military discourse to “no plan survives contact with the enemy,” it has become one of the most quoted aphorisms in the canon. The condensed version usually leaves off the important qualifier about “the first collision with the enemy’s main body” (der erste Zusammenstoss mit der feindlichen Hauptmacht), but it works nonetheless as a general truism, warning the commander that the enemy will have something to say about how things go.

The only problem with this famous quote is that it is not true. Sometimes—rarely, to be sure, but sometimes—your plans go off exactly as you draw them up, or even succeed beyond your wildest dreams. The Wehrmacht had already had a few such moments in this war: Case Yellow in 1940, for example, or Operation 25, the campaign in Yugoslavia in 1941. Another wildly successful undertaking was Operation Axis. In any operation, so much depends on the attitude of the enemy. Some fight tooth and nail, some put up a good appearance, and some disappear altogether. In response to Operation Axis, the Italian army chose the third option.

Read the rest of the article at the citation for details.

Essentially, it is possible to conduct lightning speed operations in very difficult terrain if you have a military genius like Marshal Badoglio running the show on the other side after Benny the Moose previously screws things up.

McP.
 
Operation Axis.



Read the rest of the article at the citation for details.

Essentially, it is possible to conduct lightning speed operations in very difficult terrain if you have a military genius like Marshal Badoglio running the show on the other side after Benny the Moose previously screws things up.

McP.
I don't think German intervention in Italy after they switched sides in 1943 is the same as Italy being on the Allies from the beginning.
 

Emperor_Coz

Banned
I think Italy would fall anyway from extra soviet troops (remember at this point they are still in the war) and Vichy France invading the Genoa region.
 
I think Italy would fall anyway from extra soviet troops (remember at this point they are still in the war) and Vichy France invading the Genoa region.

Sure they can bypass the Alps with sheer force of numbers...naturally there will be consequences and expect loss on par of La Somme at least, for the Axis and merely for the breakthrough. Vichy France (if exist) can try to invade but i expect the same result of the italian invasion of OTL
 

McPherson

Banned
I don't think German intervention in Italy after they switched sides in 1943 is the same as Italy being on the Allies from the beginning.

No it is not, but the mountains only work if there are people in there to use them to make the mountains work to stop German maneuver warfare. No fight present =s no defense. IOW, One Benney the Moose = one German mountain blitzkrieg guaranteed, to succeed as far as the Poe Valley and maybe as far south as Rome; no matter which side Benny joins at the start. I cite RTL history ridiculous situations as they played out as the proof. Professionals, and I mean good American and British and French ones went in there pre-Baywatch and took a look at the Italian leadership (Badoglio and crew) and thumbs downed anything north of Rome as undoable.
 
Top