In a universe where South Africa falls to communist blacks in 1960s and millions of Afrikaners flee to southern US how south it impact civil rights?

[Lusitania]

So I am writing a TL called Lusophone world. (See signature for link) in the TL South Africa falls to communist African National Conference which advocates SA for blacks. Millions of whites flee SA (along with other races and some blacks). The majority of the Afrikaners flee to the US and settle in Southern US (1967-1969)

This is at a time that the south and rest of America was witnessing the civil rights movement. So while these Afrikaners are not American citizens how would their presence impact the US?

Note: they can’t be deported since SA not want them and ANC has stated they will be arrested and tried for crimes against Blacks.

 

[rfmcdonald]

It is difficult for me to imagine how South Africa circa the 1960s could fall to a black Communist revolution. There was a black supermajority, sure, but the whites of South Africa were firmly in control of an effective state.

What happened?

 

[RedKing]

I think this is in the wrong forum, this should be in the after 1900 forum

 

[Lusitania]

Without going into the whole TL in this thread. In 1965 there was civil war between pro-commonwealth and more rights to non Europeans and the Afrikaners. The Afrikaners won the civil war but were weakened then Portuguese federation invaded from Eastern and western African provinces to stop them from attacking blacks.. This destabilized the Afrikaners and in the post war anarchy blacks rose up and ANC took control of 3/4 of SA while the Zulu established their own country. For more specifics please read TL.

The point is not SA falls but what impact it has on the US.

 

[Pauh the federalist]

Somehow have the South African whites take the same road as Rhodesia in order to give the Africans a reason to rise up on mass.

 

[Lusitania]

I think this is in the wrong forum, this should be in the after 1900 forum

Yes my bad. Thought I had posted in post 1900. I asked moderators to move already

 

[Lusitania]

Somehow have the South African whites take the same road as Rhodesia in order to give the Africans a reason to rise up on mass.

Hi sorry but this is not a threat to discuss SA and reasons for their fall. That has happened already for better or worse. What I am only asking is their impact in Southern US.

 

[Sceonn]

They might become a symbol for failure of Segregationist policies and possible radicalization of African Americans if things are left as they are esp. in light of figures like Malcolm X and the Black Panther Party.

Wouldn't they be spread across the Anglophone world? Some going to Britain, Canada, Australia and New Zealand as well. I can see them having the most impact on Australia, fermenting the already present anti-immigration and entrenching the White Australia Policy, if only to avoid something similar. Those dominoes might then impact the US as the damaged position of the Southern policy might instead steer them to focus on keeping non-whites population low, thus lower electoral power all around.

I'm not very well read on the period however.

 

[Analytical Engine]

Hi sorry but this is not a threat to discuss SA and reasons for their fall. That has happened already for better or worse. What I am only asking is their impact in Southern US.

Well, the Segregationists are going to say "see, this is going to happen here too, if we don't keep the n*****s down" etc. Anti-communist sentiment is going to go even further up, etc. I wouldn't be surprised if white supremacist violence against black Americans gets even worse.

Similarly, radicals amongst African-Americans might become emboldened.

 

[Lusitania]

They might become a symbol for failure of Segregationist policies and possible radicalization of African Americans if things are left as they are esp. in light of figures like Malcolm X and the Black Panther Party.

Wouldn't they be spread across the Anglophone world? Some going to Britain, Canada, Australia and New Zealand as well. I can see them having the most impact on Australia, fermenting the already present anti-immigration and entrenching the White Australia Policy, if only to avoid something similar. Those dominoes might then impact the US as the damaged position of the Southern policy might instead steer them to focus on keeping non-whites population low, thus lower electoral power all around.

I'm not very well read on the period however.

There were two refugee groups the first group which comprised of either moderate Afrikaners or British descendants migrated to commonwealth countries with Canada and Britain and New Zealand receiving majority of them (about over 1 million) plus there were black and mixed people who fled along them. The Indians in SA went to Democratic Union of India and Canada mostly.

The second group which was comprised mostly of Afrikaners who had either fought the moderate whites/commonwealth and then the Africans were not welcome disposed to go to Canada or New Zealand and majority about 70% went to Southern US while a good number about 15-20% went to Australia and rest Britain and few to Canada and rest of world.

 

[CalBear]

I would strongly remind folks that this is NOT Chat.

Mind your P's & Q's

 

[Lusitania]

Well, the Segregationists are going to say "see, this is going to happen here too, if we don't keep the n*****s down" etc. Anti-communist sentiment is going to go even further up, etc. I wouldn't be surprised if white supremacist violence against black Americans gets even worse.

Similarly, radicals amongst African-Americans might become emboldened.

The anti-communist sentiment is sky high in the US with both Columbia and Peru on verge of falling to communist while Bolivia has already fallen. So yes we have a TL where US is fighting a war against communism is south East Asia and Latin America deploying over double (close to three times) the number troops overseas in iOTL.

As for communist sympathizer in the US there would be less but I trying to understand the impact of my actions in the TL and determining if the civil rights movement is postponed, stretched out due to greater resistance by white (civil unrest) to American federal government orders or happen iotl.

 

[Sceonn]

The second group which was comprised mostly of Afrikaners who had either fought the moderate whites/commonwealth

They're going to show the American public the worst side of the entire system in my view. TTL US is already in a weaker position in foreign affairs and not giving any more ammunition to their adversaries will be big on the agenda, so I don't think they'll want to enable such a potent fifth column to develop in the Homefront. Likely deals with Black leaders to disavow communism in their communities in exchange for gradual desegregation. Might take longer than OTL, but would be more comprehensive.

 

[Blue cat]

They might become a symbol for failure of Segregationist policies and possible radicalization of African Americans if things are left as they are esp. in light of figures like Malcolm X and the Black Panther Party.

Wouldn't they be spread across the Anglophone world? Some going to Britain, Canada, Australia and New Zealand as well. I can see them having the most impact on Australia, fermenting the already present anti-immigration and entrenching the White Australia Policy, if only to avoid something similar. Those dominoes might then impact the US as the damaged position of the Southern policy might instead steer them to focus on keeping non-whites population low, thus lower electoral power all around.

I'm not very well read on the period however.

The concept of immigrants wanting to stop subsequent immigration seems a bit ironic.

That being said some of the most anti immigration people I have encountered over the decades have either been immigrants themselves or children of immigrants so I suppose that type of outcome is somewhat plausible.

 

[Expat]

It's hard to imagine a movement (the anti-civil rights movement in the South in the mid-20th century) that was so opposed to outsiders would really welcome Afrikaners with open arms. As far as I know, the leaders of the movement (diffuse as they were) never seriously considered "winning via demographics." The idea was always that "things would be fine if outsiders just stayed away."

Consider the linguistic problem. This was a major point of contention for Afrikaners during their entire rule. Would they just be willing to put aside their culture to the extent that they conform with English-speaking society? Certainly, the more conservative parts of the US at the time had major, deal-breaking issues with anyone who didn't speak English (thin ice, maybe, but I think that's pretty fair to say).

If we're talking about a really small area, like the Cubans in south Florida, then maybe we can make something happen? Actually, how did the Cubans respond to Civil Rights? Being largely Republican and arriving at the tail-end of the issue, perhaps they side-stepped it? I honestly don't know, it would be interesting hear from an expert on this.

 

[Julius Vogel]

Probably useful to note that IRL a load of Afrikaners ended up in UK/Europe in late 20th century - not all of them moderate/left wing types. Loads of Afrikaners have recent Euro ancestry and a few of them would surely use this to migrate to W Europe. I certainly have met some in 21st century UK (they used their EU passports to move to UK as that's perhaps easier to do for someone who speaks a bit of English). Presumably in the 60s this would be more of a thing if just because there would be more people with recent European ancestry and less in the way of tight migration rules. English language ability might be a little less prevalent tbf.

I wonder also if South America would get a few

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

I would have thought that the Afrikaners would be more likely to end up in the Netherlands than the US.

 

[Lusitania]

The Africans nor the whites in southern states are not the people who would be granting the refugee with emigration into a country that was the domain of the federal government who following the Afrikaner government collapse and the exodus out of SA would of seeking refuge.

Canada has accepted close to 1 million SA both whites and non whites already but they also fought the Afrikaners during the civil war. So there is some hard feelings from them. About 200,000 SA both United and Afrikaners moved to SA (Brazil and Argentina).

The US offered the Afrikaners which were the last to leave the best opportunities for settlement and while some went to Europe no other country was both willing and had capacity to take them.

Note: I believe the white population of SA was around 4 million. Add about 1 million mixed, Asians and Africans fleeing with them that over 5 million. Granted about 1 million settled in Rhodesia and federation ( have to read tL to understand). So we still have around 4 million people fleeing SA.

My figures showed about half emigrated in 1st wave to Canada, Britain and New Zealand taking about 3/4 of them and rest of Europe and world dealing with remainder.

When 2nd wave fled the number of countries able to accept another humanitarian wave was limited and due to atrocities committed by Afrikaners during their wars not as accepting (europe). Hence their migration to America and Australia.

Australia will have big implication and non whites be excluded snd discriminated for longer period of time. The Afrikaners migrated to all over the US at first but over time started to two areas of Afrikaners emerged in the US. Large number in southern states and north west

 

[Lusitania]

I would have thought that the Afrikaners would be more likely to end up in the Netherlands than the US.

The Afrikaners in SA have had no cultural contact with Netherlands In close to 200 years. They be strangers in Netherlands and speak a different language. Be like Italians and french

 

[walmart]

The South outside of Florida wasn't attracting immigrates during the 1960s. White South Africans would head to the North-East, West Coast, or the Great Lakes Area.