Industrial revolution in Song China

admkenshin

Recently, there was a thread about a potential Roman steam engine (invented by Heron unless I've messed up names again ^_^), and it was more or less concluded that even if it became mainstream knowledge, it would not really have sparked any form of industrial revolution, due to the reality of the economics of the time.

In the thread, it was also mentioned that during the Song dynasty of China (960 CE - 1200something CE) there was a potential industrial revolution in the making.

So, my question is, what if a practical steam engine somehow became reality during the early Song? Would it have sparked an industrial revolution later on? If there was one, how would it change our world?
 

Broz

the problem is all the main reasons for a industrial revolution come before the steam engine factor
alone the steam engine is a relatively starnge mashine interesting for warious reasons but generaly neglected as its use necesitates a preexistant infrastructure or a need, will and conceptual plan to build one
for instance the first mechanised textile mils ran on hidro power, that is they were placed on riverbanks much like flour mils

as i understand much chinese tehnology used kinetic energy from moving water, no?
the thing that makes a industrial revolution is a economic and social sistem that requiers multiplication of labor and production of surplus goods

tehnology comes later, to fill gaps and fulfill needs
 

admkenshin

And that is just what Song China had. A massive agricultural surplus, a large production of industrial goods (for a pre-industrial nation), well-developed infrastructure, and a commercialized urban environment. For some reason, the actual revolution never happened, which might have had to do with the lack of any portable labour-reducing machine.
 

Communist Wizard

Ah, I remember starting a timeline on this...
Here
I basically destroyed Song China's cause of collapse and gave it a guy who would industrialise the place. Or help start it.
I could help out... But I tried to start it so long ago I can't remember anything...
 

NapoleonXIV

Banned
One of the things brought up in the other discussion of this is that the steam engine is more a product than a cause of the IR. It requires a fairly advanced knowledge of iron working and the ability to make things to fairly close tolerances before it can work well.

Now the Chinese did have the ability to make large amounts of iron in the Han, but had they kept it?

Also, the Romans had a knowledge of water driven machinery almost as advanced as the Song IIRC, but whether they had the rest of the requirements for an IR is doubtful.
 

admkenshin

NapoleonXIV said:
One of the things brought up in the other discussion of this is that the steam engine is more a product than a cause of the IR. It requires a fairly advanced knowledge of iron working and the ability to make things to fairly close tolerances before it can work well.

Now the Chinese did have the ability to make large amounts of iron in the Han, but had they kept it?
Click to expand...

The Chinese under Song produced about 125 000 tonnes of cast iron every year. Britain surpassed that in the 1750's I think.

Song also had access to coal (which in OTL saved China from heavy deforestation), so if Song can keep northern China they'll have the fuel.
 

Faeelin

Banned
admkenshin said:
And that is just what Song China had. A massive agricultural surplus, a large production of industrial goods (for a pre-industrial nation), well-developed infrastructure, and a commercialized urban environment. For some reason, the actual revolution never happened, which might have had to do with the lack of any portable labour-reducing machine.
Click to expand...

They were also behind in less obvious ways, although by whate extent is unclear. Printing for instance, was less common in China at this point; and from my limited understanding, their financial system wasn't as developed as 18th century Europe.
 

admkenshin

You're right of course, the Song had a less advanced economy. They had the joint-stock company idea (which comes natural from foreign trade over the seas), but it still wasn't written into law, I think. Still this was mostly invested into trade, no one thought of the idea to mass produce goods cheaply.

I think the problem was that Song was too rich. The foreign trade and internal production produced all that they needed, and even farmers had access to more than bare substinence goods. All the merchants and other people with capital, got all that they wanted from trade.

Perhaps mongols upsetting the inland trade routes while bad weather made sea trade less profitable? Someone, seeing profits going down year after year, and seeing the government doing nothing other than protect China proper, would perhaps start thinking about producing goods instead of trading.
 

tallwingedgoat

The Watt steam engine was the product of scientific design. It's not something that is easily stumbled onto.

If an IR took place in Song China, the Mongol conquests would be butterflied away.
 
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