Paul V McNutt
Banned
Many reporters did know the details of Kennedy´s private life and just didn´t report it.
P.S: Did Turteldove publish this story?
P.S: Did Turteldove publish this story?
JFK Assasination failure
- Thread starter Arthas the Bloodmage
- Start date
It's been put on indefinite hold, with no updates on the blog (it was co-written with Bryce Zabel) since March 2007. I think the consensus is that it's been canceled, as it hinged on becoming a film and evidentally no one was interested in buying it.
Winter of Our Discontent
Kaptin Kurk
Banned
In alternate history, anything is possible. However, when it comes to the Civil Rights movement, I think in the absence of an sympathetic president, there would probably have to be some significant 'white reprisals' to keep things in check which could effect larger issues. Blacks were obviously becoming more radical, and while the white community, backed by the government, could have easily smacked down the Blk Panthers, ect...whenever they wanted, butterflies in history might be worthwhile....
Assuming Vietnam is supported by JFK (It think it would be) and Civil Rights is Not (I'm betting he might not) you might see modern political parties which aren't quite as racially divied at the very least.
(No need for a Nixon southern strategy, means republicans never become quite as conservative and democrats never quite as liberals, and African-American vote split...)
Whether that's important or not, who knows, but after the black radicals get life in prison or are killed in a world without civil rights delayed to the 70's or 80's, a """Southern Stategy" might not emerge.....with a south that is still somewhat populist.." Or at least the Republicans might have a harder time aligning Northern Industrialist with Southern Race Men
Assuming Vietnam is supported by JFK (It think it would be) and Civil Rights is Not (I'm betting he might not) you might see modern political parties which aren't quite as racially divied at the very least.
(No need for a Nixon southern strategy, means republicans never become quite as conservative and democrats never quite as liberals, and African-American vote split...)
Whether that's important or not, who knows, but after the black radicals get life in prison or are killed in a world without civil rights delayed to the 70's or 80's, a """Southern Stategy" might not emerge.....with a south that is still somewhat populist.." Or at least the Republicans might have a harder time aligning Northern Industrialist with Southern Race Men
That's a shame: it looked like it had real promise, although you can bet Turtledove would have become something of a lightning rod: you don't do that to an icon (at least Kennedy is/was an icon to some--not me, however) and come away unscathed.
I know, this despite the part in the authors' section where they insist they're both Democrats who loved Kennedy. People will find ways to criticize them for casting a dark cloud over Camelot despite Nov 22 1963 turning out good for JFK's survival.
Kennedy supported civil rights. The question is not whether it passes, but in how strong a form it passes.
IOTL Johnson was not in fact planning to pass the Civil Rights bill, but Martin Luther King forced him into it, though of course Johnson had plenty of political capital to spend.
As for Viet Nam, if you read the JFK's Second Term article I linked up thread, it seems that Kennedy was very wary of deploying troops to Viet Nam and had already considered the parallels with other wars of that sort. He may still escalate as Johnson did, but it is not for certain.
I'm not saying Kennedy was anywhere near a good a President as he is sometimes made out to be, but there is solid evidence that his second term would look far different than Johnson's term.
joe-chamberlain
Banned
If JFK had lived I think it would have been far harder for him to pass the civil rights bills and he would have done the same in Vietnam.
Just as Well I Suppose, According to My Brother, Dr. Turtledove is Quite Reticent about Making The Transition to Screen-Writing ...
Although his Crosstime Traffic Young Adult Novels WERE on Track to be Made into Movies, that is Right up Until The Screenwriters' Guild Went on Strike ...
Hmmm, Maybe he's Smarter than we Give him Credit for?
RKO General
Banned
His mother lived to 104 - it's quite likely that the alt-2008 still has JFK around as an elder statesman and the patriarch of the Democratic Party.
Paul V McNutt
Banned
I -don´t think so, not with his health problems. I think remember hearing someone say that JFK could have only expected to live into his 60s.
A bit off on a tangent here but could no Kennedy assasination mean both major american political parties are discredited by the 70s? Kennedy's womanising was bound to come out soon or later and which mighty lead to Richard Nixon campaiging on a pledge to clean up the whitehouse. Imagine the trouble when Nixon's various dirty tricks were discovered (i assume he'd win against a discredited Kennedy).
Also, it is clear that Kennedy was shot by a giant space lizard posing as the Queen of England.
Also, it is clear that Kennedy was shot by a giant space lizard posing as the Queen of England.
Paul V McNutt
Banned
The press largely ignored private lives of elected officials until Watergate. So it is hard to say when Kennedy´s womanizing would have become public.
burmafrd
Banned
About Vietnam: JFK was very proud and supportive of the Special Forces who were doing most of the work inNam at the time. They were doing pretty well untill Johnson got impatient and decided to committ regular forces. Trying to use regular forces against a Guerilla enemy in a jungle country is if not quite futile extremely hard to do. And you get a lot of casualties that way. It was the number of troops we lost that started to cost the war its support; then the Administration and the Pentagon started to spin and that set them up for the Tet Offensive. Even that COULD have been managed if we had said this was exactly like Hitlers battle of the bulge= a last gasp gamble. And it nearly was= the Viet Cong were virtually done and NV army took over a year to recover and actually was not capeable of real serious offensives for 2. Their reserves were badly shot up by the Air Force trying to take Khe Sanh. Add Khe Sanh to Tet and the NV army lost around 50,000 dead. That was a HUGE price for them but in the end it was one that won them the war. If we had not been spinning things so badly and had handled the PR better (more coverage of the many atrocities the NV and VC committed) that could have made a big difference as well. Of course allowing the Cambodia sanctuary and not bombing bridges that the Chinese used to bring supplies in and not mining Haiphong untill its too late...
There were a lot of mistakes made in that war.
Of course the fact that the SV army and government were never worth much probably doomed the whole effort anyway.
There were a lot of mistakes made in that war.
Of course the fact that the SV army and government were never worth much probably doomed the whole effort anyway.
Yes, it's bizarre that Kennedy was so ill, and yet the public seemed to have no idea at the time...
(on that link: don't be put off by the silly name, it does seem to be a very well-referenced article)
An interesting idea about Vietnam suggested through the French (De Gaulle was a major mediator between Moscow & Washington) was for a swap: US withdrawl from Vietnam for Soviet withdrawl from Cuba. However such ideas were only forming during JFK's murder.
This had already happened over missiles with Turkey & Cuba. Afterall Castro well into the 60's wasn't dedicated to Soviet Communism (he'd risen to power as a Popular Nationalist in 1959). I mean I doubt even the Havana government was convinced constant emnity towards a Superpower 40(?) miles away would last well into the next century with success (well survival anyway). Surely no embargo and pure Non-Alignment would have been a godsend for Castro in 1964/5.
Its an interesting idea and from OTL point of view would have been brilliant but how would have Kennedy's position suffered. No Soviet support for Hanoi and the VietCong still doesn't stop China, particularly as the Sino-Soviet Split takes place, still leading to a possible Red takeover in Saigon while rapproachment after the Bay of Pigs and Missile Crisis would have cemented Republican criticism over Democrats being soft on communism.
This could lead in the long-term to a very interesting stage for African insurgencies, instead of SA/Portugeuse/Rhodesian forces VS Soviet/Cuban VS Maoists, with the Americans acting as Devil's Advocates depending on whoes winning, Chinese baked forces would totally isolated and the Soviets possibly more inclined to friendly Left-Wing Nationalists over out-and-out Marxists (an odd mirror to US-backed juntas). Perhaps Rhodesia-Zimbabwe survives? Anglo and Mozambique's civil wars are swiftly resolved? No Derg in Ethiopia?
All specualtion mind but very intriguing
This had already happened over missiles with Turkey & Cuba. Afterall Castro well into the 60's wasn't dedicated to Soviet Communism (he'd risen to power as a Popular Nationalist in 1959). I mean I doubt even the Havana government was convinced constant emnity towards a Superpower 40(?) miles away would last well into the next century with success (well survival anyway). Surely no embargo and pure Non-Alignment would have been a godsend for Castro in 1964/5.
Its an interesting idea and from OTL point of view would have been brilliant but how would have Kennedy's position suffered. No Soviet support for Hanoi and the VietCong still doesn't stop China, particularly as the Sino-Soviet Split takes place, still leading to a possible Red takeover in Saigon while rapproachment after the Bay of Pigs and Missile Crisis would have cemented Republican criticism over Democrats being soft on communism.
This could lead in the long-term to a very interesting stage for African insurgencies, instead of SA/Portugeuse/Rhodesian forces VS Soviet/Cuban VS Maoists, with the Americans acting as Devil's Advocates depending on whoes winning, Chinese baked forces would totally isolated and the Soviets possibly more inclined to friendly Left-Wing Nationalists over out-and-out Marxists (an odd mirror to US-backed juntas). Perhaps Rhodesia-Zimbabwe survives? Anglo and Mozambique's civil wars are swiftly resolved? No Derg in Ethiopia?
All specualtion mind but very intriguing