octoberman
Banned
what if Justinian II conquered the caliphate during second fitna when it was extremely weak
Justinian II conquers the Caliphate during second fitna
- Thread starter octoberman
- Start date
If they some how did manage to pull it off the Romans likely don't get to keep much of it. They lost a lot of those areas in the first place due to being rather unpopular with the locals.
What is interesting is that the lands in question are also unlikely to revert to some Caliphate, as Arabization and Islamization were in their infancy. But yeah, independent Egyptian and Libyan Kingdoms, a potential Parthian/Sassanian revival. All exciting material for a TL.
Justinian made some good gians during this period but conquering the caliphate is a no no maybe he could force an even greater deal and finally stop Arab expansion for good like Leo did 20 years later imo have Abd al-Malik die early on even when he took the throne he faced several delays and defeats if you can make the civil war worst you can delay it pretty much to 700s or less likely see the caliphate divide
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I doubt it, OTL even during the Fitna ummayds stop him easily, so another romanboo fantasy
Maybe a different battle of Sebastopolis might shake things enough for Justinian to make minor gains, prevent his own downfall and successfully defend Africa from Arab aggression. I would count this as victory for the empire over the Caliphate. From there I thinks it's a matter of making small but progressive gains. It's not the outright conquest you are looking to, but the empire can definitely return to be the premiere power in the Mediterranean if it manages to stop the Arabs (before the Isaurians) while keeping a strong foot in the West
A victory at Sebastopolis would help also now je doesn't have to immediately get into hostilities with tervel
Indeed! What the empire really needs is to play the long game, preserve what they have and restructure their internal organization (it was after all Justinian II who brought to its conclusion the Thematic reorganization of the army, barring minor changes in the VIII century), not a Justinianic style reconquest of the lost territories. The time will come when the Caliphate permanently weakens and break apart. The stronger the empire's position is by that point, the greater the extent of the reconquest will be. Peace in the East also comes with its own advantages, like the possibility for VIII century emperors to better focus on the Bulgars or the Lombards.
Justinian dealt with other slavic tribes well aside from Bulgaria so partial Balkan recovery is very much possible reestablishment of key areas would help a lot and maybe don't make cilicia a border of thing since having the port of tarsus would help also Africa delaying its fall has a lot consequences since it gives the Berbers more time organizing
More than delaying the fall of Africa to give the Berbers time; I was more looking to the possibility of the Romans retaining their presence there permanently.
Frankly, bigger success against the Umayyads is contingent on having breathing space. I'd go with Constantine IV smashing the Bulgars at Ongal (OTL outcome was an upset that could have easily been averted) so that by the time the Fitna is heating up he and later on Justinian can make gains.
Gotta say this current trend of insulting other members with "XXXboo" is getting tiresome as all hell.
If you can't respond without insulting someone, don't respond.
I doubt that the OTL Justinian II had the ability to undertake such a task. Constantine IV died relatively young at 35 or so, and Justinian came to power at 16 and ruled as well as someone might expect a 16-year-old to lead. That is, with a lot of energy and optimism, but little delicacy or finesse. A better PoD would be to keep Constantine IV around longer so that Justinian can be groomed appropriately and doesn't make stupid mistakes.
The biggest problem, however, is that the various factions in the Fitna aren't exactly weak, and are in fact mobilized. So a potential long-shot scenario-
The battle of Marj Rahit goes the same way since the Damascus treasury is still in Kalb control, but Abd-al Aziz dies (as he nearly did OTL when he was thrown off his horse) and al-Dahhak manages to escape. This delays the Ummayad reconquest of Egypt, and thus prevents Abd al-Malik from being able to throw money at all his problems. The otl 889 treaty would probably not be possible and Antioch, as well as the surrounding lands could be ceded to the Romans which would solve the Mardaite issue also.
If all the cards are played well, and a couple of sixes rolled, Justinian might ascend to Basil II's eastern borders 300 years ahead of schedule.
The biggest problem, however, is that the various factions in the Fitna aren't exactly weak, and are in fact mobilized. So a potential long-shot scenario-
The battle of Marj Rahit goes the same way since the Damascus treasury is still in Kalb control, but Abd-al Aziz dies (as he nearly did OTL when he was thrown off his horse) and al-Dahhak manages to escape. This delays the Ummayad reconquest of Egypt, and thus prevents Abd al-Malik from being able to throw money at all his problems. The otl 889 treaty would probably not be possible and Antioch, as well as the surrounding lands could be ceded to the Romans which would solve the Mardaite issue also.
If all the cards are played well, and a couple of sixes rolled, Justinian might ascend to Basil II's eastern borders 300 years ahead of schedule.
bulgaria tho so it would have to be 680 pod, but the Armenian part of the 1025 map being sent back to 690 makes the most sense antioch would be harder tho but you can make Cilicia roman instead of the no man land it was for some time
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It’s simply not possible. They just don’t have the resources to conquer the caliphate. What can be done is for the empire to not lose at Sebastopolis. That and maybe another good win or two could allow Justinian to preserve the empires borders and more importantly his reign and the empires stability. He came to the throne at a young age so if he can have a long reign and keep the empire stable it would go along way in preserving the empire and allowing it a much earlier period of renewal and growth.
octoberman
Banned
But resources of Byzantium were on par with Umayyads during Battle of Marj Rahit
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