Justinian II Triumphant

[Lady Visenya]

Inspired by the Constans II triumphant thread.

What if Justinian II had succeeded in his known plans? Or, rather, what POD would allow for him to have the most success as a ruler? What would be the consequences of this?

I want to avoid wank, however. What's the best case scenario?

 

[Vinization]

There was an excellent TL where he isn't as obsessed with revenge when he returns to power, but it's been dead for over six years unfortunately.

EDIT: Never mind, the last update was written in 2009. 😢

 

[Lady Visenya]

@Goldensilver81

 

[Vinization]

Wasn't there a battle against the Arabs before his first overthrow where a number of Roman troops deserted and helped the enemy win? If that doesn't happen and the ERE wins, maybe Justinian's internal position is stronger and he's not overthrown, butterflying the Twenty Years' Anarchy and Iconoclasm.

EDIT: Here it is.

 

[Lady Visenya]

Wasn't there a battle against the Arabs before his first overthrow where a number of Roman troops deserted and helped the enemy win? If that doesn't happen and the ERE wins, maybe Justinian's internal position is stronger and he's not overthrown, butterflying the Twenty Years' Anarchy and Iconoclasm.

Sebastopolis, IIRC.

Was a defection of Slavs. I think.

Edit: Just saw your edit, lel.

 

[Vinization]

Sebastopolis, IIRC.

Was a defection of Slavs. I think.

Do you think he could've retaken Cilicia in case of a victory? That would go a long way in stopping Arab raids into Anatolia. Maybe one of Justinian's successors decades after his natural death could retake Syria and Armenia from the Arabs during the chaos of the Berber Revolt, the Third Fitna and the Abbasid Revolution.

 

[Lady Visenya]

Do you think he could've retaken Cilicia in case of a victory? That would go a long way in stopping Arab raids into Anatolia. Maybe one of Justinian's successors decades after his natural death could retake Syria and Armenia from the Arabs during the chaos of the Berber Revolt, the Third Fitna and the Abbasid Revolution.

Perhaps? I'm not really certain, that's a big part of why I'm asking the questions I am asking, lol.

I do have a Justinian II timeline in the works, so I'm working to get as much info and as many opinions as I can.

 

[Vinization]

Perhaps? I'm not really certain, that's a big part of why I'm asking the questions I am asking, lol.

I do have a Justinian II timeline in the works, so I'm working to get as much info and as many opinions as I can.

Oh right you're the OP, sorry. 😅

 

[Vinization]

@wcv215

 

[Silver01]

Oh you with your heraclian question .
Well Avoid him or reduce his tyranny the man was not bad at all but jeez he can match phocas for been an ass
So if he backs it up then good before sebastopolis he has success from kicking of the slavs in many areas including macedonia winning minor victories against the caliphate etc
So here in this otl the sclaveni don't desert and he wins at sebastopolis good he gets to keep what he has gained in armenia and the Romans don't loose cilicia.

With that said maybe the battle clams him down and he doesn't alienate everyone this victory can mean that Symbatius doesn't rebel giving the arabs access to armenia

The problem here is that he was hated by everyone do his land reform ( the noblity) conflict with church ( the ..church ) and high taxes and resettlement how ever if he wins at sebastopolis he can push for a bigger arab tribute ( he already upgrades the one of Constantine IV why not ) and end the divided taxes with all of Cyprus and armenia (that he controls )
Like the olt he stats making new themes and with new money he doesn't tax the heck out of the
Peasants and farmer soldiers .

Meaning while he most likely alienates the aristocracy and Church he would for the most part have support of the army and peasants the first been the most important .

This is huge since there is no 20 years anarchy is avoided delaying the fall of africa

 

[Silver01]

I do have a Justinian II timeline in the works, so I'm working to get as much info and as many opinions as I can.

Here I thought you where going to make the constans one
I mean at this pace some one has to do it since heirs of heraclius is still in 860 .

 

[wcv215]

Wasn't there a battle against the Arabs before his first overthrow where a number of Roman troops deserted and helped the enemy win?

Maybe, but do keep in mind that blaming foreign treachery for defeats is a very old dodge of responsibility. Although the Slavs were there after being forced into Roman service anyway, so...

IMO the best way to increase Justinian's success is to have him succeed in the Balkans, and then hold off on more campaigns against the Arabs. And, and this is critical, make him stop the bloody persecution of non-Chalcedonians. If he can keep the various Christian groups at least mostly unified against the Arabs there's a chance that Justinian can stop the Arabs from overrunning Armenia.

 

[ImperialxWarlord]

If he’s a bit less tyrannical and doesn’t lose that battle in anatolia I think there’s a fair chance he could become a very long reigning emperor, maybe even exceeding Augustus. Justinian II seemed like a militarily skilled ruler to say the least, and a competent administrator. I don’t think it’s wrong to think that if he stayed in power he’d continue his military victories against all of the enemies of Rome.

 

[Lady Visenya]

Oh you with your heraclian question .

I just find the 7th century intensely interesting.

And given that nobody likes Phokas I avoid questions about him, lol.

This is huge since there is no 20 years anarchy is avoided delaying the fall of africa

And with the Fall of Africa delayed that means the empire continues to have a little bit more money.

So, would Tiberius son of Justinian likely make it to adulthood? Or would the Heraclian dynasty still end in the early 8th century simply due to conspiracy by the nobility and church?

Here I thought you where going to make the constans one
I mean at this pace some one has to do it since heirs of heraclius is still in 860 .

I've had Justinian II timeline on the backburner since early this year.

IMO the best way to increase Justinian's success is to have him succeed in the Balkans, and then hold off on more campaigns against the Arabs. And, and this is critical, make him stop the bloody persecution of non-Chalcedonians. If he can keep the various Christian groups at least mostly unified against the Arabs there's a chance that Justinian can stop the Arabs from overrunning Armenia.

So focusing on the Balkans while maintaining a defense of Anatolia (including Armenia) and what's left of Roman Africa? Could attempts be made to push the borders to the Maritsa and Morava rivers? Or is that not worth the effort?

 

[Silver01]

Maybe, but do keep in mind that blaming foreign treachery for defeats is a very old dodge of responsibility. Although the Slavs were there after being forced into Roman service anyway, so...

IMO the best way to increase Justinian's success is to have him succeed in the Balkans, and then hold off on more campaigns against the Arabs. And, and this is critical, make him stop the bloody persecution of non-Chalcedonians. If he can keep the various Christian groups at least mostly unified against the Arabs there's a chance that Justinian can stop the Arabs from overrunning Armenia.

the persecutions alienated people but it one factor not the main one he was just bloody against the Manichaeans the rest where tyranical as for the Balkan i think he would sebastapolis was there to challage the arabs and get full dominion over armenia if he does and gets his treaty that gives him all of it and more tribute he is done there unless he wants he goes full idot and goes for the levant.
the overruning of armenia had mostly to do with his defeat and the rebellion of Symbatius who we dont know if he was for religion or because he was power hungry or well the arabs where invading and justinian didnt really respond.

 

[Silver01]

I just find the 7th century intensely interesting.

And given that nobody likes Phokas I avoid questions about him, lol.

got that rigth.

And with the Fall of Africa delayed that means the empire continues to have a little bit more money.

So, would Tiberius son of Justinian likely make it to adulthood? Or would the Heraclian dynasty still end in the early 8th century simply due to conspiracy by the nobility and church?

well we dont know if he is born since he is the son of him and the daughter of the khazar khagan in his exile so unless he still marries her , or marries another person earlier and have a son earlier assuming he is still born around the same time , i think he does make it assuming Justinian II lives till 55 he would die in 724 meaning that Tiberius would be 19 or 20 so yeah if well since his father is successful they wont as for Tiberius well depends how good is he
and how he deals with his father meaning that he could be like the justinian II of this timeline or just a regular emperor or incompetent and nothing more than a pupper so it depends.

I've had Justinian II timeline on the backburner since early this year.

makes sense i plan to maybe start the constans one when i reach 1400 in my main timeline so a lot time from now.

 

[Lady Visenya]

well we dont know if he is born since he is the son of him and the daughter of the khazar khagan in his exile so unless he still marries her , or marries another person earlier and have a son earlier assuming he is still born around the same time , i think he does make it assuming Justinian II lives till 55 he would die in 724 meaning that Tiberius would be 19 or 20 so yeah if well since his father is successful they wont as for Tiberius well depends how good is he
and how he deals with his father meaning that he could be like the justinian II of this timeline or just a regular emperor or incompetent and nothing more than a pupper so it depends.

Cutting deals with the Khazars against the Bulgars might be a reason for that marriage to happen, maybe?

got that rigth.

I also like the Isaurians quite a lot.

Would Justinian II be remembered as one of the better emperors, do you think? At least in this scenario.

 

[Silver01]

Cutting deals with the Khazars against the Bulgars might be a reason for that marriage to happen, maybe?


I also like the Isaurians quite a lot.

Would Justinian II be remembered as one of the better emperors, do you think? At least in this scenario.

1) yes also the muslims who have a border in the Caucasus
2) yes he would be seen as like Jonh II kommmenos (with constantine IV been like alexios that stoped the turks and constatine the arabs) and justinian would regain territory.

 

[Lady Visenya]

1) yes also the muslims who have a border in the Caucasus
2) yes he would be seen as like Jonh II kommmenos (with constantine IV been like alexios that stoped the turks and constatine the arabs) and justinian would regain territory.

I imagine that an alliance with the Khazars would also help the Arabs come to the bargaining table more in Justinian's favor, then?

Do you think this Justinian might focus a bit on Beneventum, or the Ravenna Exarchate a lost cause at this point? I personally am thinking now the focus would mostly be on securing the Balkan holdings.