Mummies of the Tarim Basin

Hi
I would like to add some comments on the genetic aspect
1) There is a big problem with modern genetic studiesof populations, the quality of the samples. The largest samples are from commercial studies with little statistic significance.
2) Population´s genetic pool could be very different along time, we have, for instance, no real security about Uyghurs and Tocharians being any close, we simply don´t have the relevant data to confirm that.
3) The relation beween languages and genetics is very problematic, and as an a priori certainly wrong.
 
Hi
I would like to add some comments on the genetic aspect
1) There is a big problem with modern genetic studiesof populations, the quality of the samples. The largest samples are from commercial studies with little statistic significance.
2) Population´s genetic pool could be very different along time, we have, for instance, no real security about Uyghurs and Tocharians being any close, we simply don´t have the relevant data to confirm that.
3) The relation beween languages and genetics is very problematic, and as an a priori certainly wrong.

About the commercial samples, 230, 000 people have participated in the Genographic project alone (and this is not the latest estimate). You must also add the samples from FTDna alone, from Ethnoancestry, from Sykes in Britain, etc...

IMHO, that is a lot of commercial samples, and they do have a certain degree of significance...

A lot of populations have been sampled according to up-to-date techniques, and the sampling is still in process. The Genographic project is a five-years endeavour...

Geneticists from all continents have been researching in that field, and a general headquarters is established in all of those regions.

Now, most studies tend to include samples of between 100 and 1,000 individuals. Sampling is not easy, and you cannot sample 10000 people at one time, in a single region. That is why the haplogroup tree has undergone several modifications. Those modifications did not question what was already known: they only added new data, and refined our knowledge of population genetics.

The National Geographic is a serious scientific organization.

You are right to point out that we have no absolute certainty regarding a direct link between Uyghurs and Tocharians. However, this is the only reasonable explanation for the presence of European Y-chromosomes in the region. It will be very difficult to sample the mummies, because the Chinese authorities are against the idea. They fear it would give the Uyghurs a greater sense of national consciousness.

I am sorry to be unpleasant, but I do not like the beginning of your name. It casts a poor light on your scientific expertise. Of course, I may have missed a cultural reference, or you are perhaps only an Indian, or a musical person, but I doubt it...

I understand it must be very difficult to admit that Europeans are a sort of crossbreed between Asian men and Middle-Eastern women, who later adapted to Ice Age conditions...:cool:

Could we talk about religion, culture, technology, agriculture, etc?
 
I am sorry to be unpleasant, but I do not like the beginning of your name. It casts a poor light on your scientific expertise. Of course, I may have missed a cultural reference, or you are perhaps only an Indian, or a musical person, but I doubt it...

I understand it must be very difficult to admit that Europeans are a sort of crossbreed between Asian men and Middle-Eastern women, who later adapted to Ice Age conditions...:cool:

Could we talk about religion, culture, technology, agriculture, etc?
Well, this is the second time I have to explain this, maybe I should add it to my signature? Aryaman is an ancient Indian god, the name can be translated as "bossom friend", now, anything unpleasant to you in that?
 
Now, about the commercial samples, they are statiscally not significative because they have not been collected using any scientific method. I hope in the future there would be more data available from scientific studies, but for the moment conclusions have to be very provisional.
 
Ok, let's be "bosom friends", Aryaman.

About the 230, 000 commercial samples collected by the genographic project (National Geographic), the method is scientific. It is supervised by Spencer Wells, a well-known geneticist, who studied under the supervision of Cavalli-Sforza when he was younger. Spencer Wells has travelled all over the world to collect samples. He does not sample for the money, he samples because he finds his own research fascinating.

People can lie about their geographic origins, and they can indeed post 10 samples of their own DNA to skew genetic studies in their favour, but most people (that is 99%, I believe) will post a sample because they want to know their origins, not to troll the project. Besides, sampling is costly, and if you wanted to troll, you had better be well-off.

Genetics is more reliable than any other methods in assessing the origin and age of populations.
 

Nikephoros

Banned
Ayraman?

I was the one who first asked him about it.

I only asked because sometimes this site gets a large amount of racists.

But yes, I did some research, and Ayraman is indeed an Indian God.
'
EDIT: I have no further ideas about the Tocharians
 
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Ok, let's be "bosom friends", Aryaman.

About the 230, 000 commercial samples collected by the genographic project (National Geographic), the method is scientific. It is supervised by Spencer Wells, a well-known geneticist, who studied under the supervision of Cavalli-Sforza when he was younger. Spencer Wells has travelled all over the world to collect samples. He does not sample for the money, he samples because he finds his own research fascinating.

People can lie about their geographic origins, and they can indeed post 10 samples of their own DNA to skew genetic studies in their favour, but most people (that is 99%, I believe) will post a sample because they want to know their origins, not to troll the project. Besides, sampling is costly, and if you wanted to troll, you had better be well-off.

Genetics is more reliable than any other methods in assessing the origin and age of populations.
I don´t think people is going to lie on purpose, but there are many other variables. In a truly scientific research you select the individuals because of their suitability to the study, for instance because they have family records dating at least 300 years back in a given region. In those commercial samples you don´t control the selection of individuals and the info they provide about their origins is many times uncertain, familiar tales, especially for the US.
I am not against Genetics by itself as a method, on the contrary I find it extremely valuable, but only when enough statistical relevant data are collected, which right now is not the situation in most cases.
For instance, take your own "Hallstatt Celt" genetic identity, it is no more than a commercial label mixing an archaeological term with a linguistic/ethnic classficiation, without any scientific value.
 

Ian the Admin

Administrator
Donor
I don't want to look paranoid or anything, but I find you a little curt and impolite ("whoa, whoa, hold up"...). Perhaps it was not your intention to be unpleasant, but you could have wrapped your answer with some kind of tactful remark, as is usually done between educated and literate people. I am only willing to engage in a civilized debate. Apparently there are a lot of teenagers on this site, and I, too, was a bit rash at this period of my life. I believed I knew everything, and I was eager to assert my big, huge manhood, and show how clever and spiritual I was.

In addition, you can also address me directly if you like, if you want to avoid rudeness and vulgarity ("I think he's talking about the Saka-Scythians").

This is utterly ridiculous. You're viciously insulting two other posters for saying "woah" and referring to you in the third person... completely normal parts of any informal conversation, especially on the internet.

Of course, you've done worse before outside this thread. Ah, there's more...

I am sorry to be unpleasant, but I do not like the beginning of your name. It casts a poor light on your scientific expertise. Of course, I may have missed a cultural reference, or you are perhaps only an Indian, or a musical person, but I doubt it...

Falsely implying that another poster is a Nazi. If you were "sorry" you wouldn't have done it.

Now, if you don't like it, kiss my French ass and go fill your big, fat belly with "Freedom Fries".

There are things called hospitality and tolerance.

The irony, it burns.

For failure to show hospitality and tolerance, among other things, I'm kicking you for a week. Once again, you can't just go around having a vicious reaction to some trivial thing that wasn't meant in any negative way.
 

Leo Caesius

Banned
I am sorry to be unpleasant, but I do not like the beginning of your name. It casts a poor light on your scientific expertise. Of course, I may have missed a cultural reference, or you are perhaps only an Indian, or a musical person, but I doubt it...
You know, you could have just googled it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aryaman

Fortunately, he's on hand to defend himself:

Well, this is the second time I have to explain this, maybe I should add it to my signature? Aryaman is an ancient Indian god, the name can be translated as "bossom friend", now, anything unpleasant to you in that?
Ilya Gershevitz says that it derives from Vedic arí, "stranger," hence aryá "concerned with strangers; hospitable." Therefore it has nothing to do with ārya "Aryan" whatsoever, contra Wikipedia. Ved. Aryamán would therefore mean "hospitality" and finds a neat cognate in Farsi īrmān, which means "guest." I guess in Sanskrit this same word, arí, comes to mean both "friend" and "enemy," as a semantic development of "stranger," or so Gershevitch seems to suggest.

Since I've already felt the back of your hand once for not providing links, here's the source for this information: Ilya Gershevitch, Bulletin of the School of Oriental and African Studies, University of London, Vol. 22, No. 1/3 (1959), pp. 154-157.
 

Nikephoros

Banned
Ilya Gershevitz says that it derives from Vedic arí, "stranger," hence aryá "concerned with strangers; hospitable." Therefore it has nothing to do with ārya "Aryan" whatsoever, contra Wikipedia. Ved. Aryamán would therefore mean "hospitality" and finds a neat cognate in Farsi īrmān, which means "guest." I guess in Sanskrit this same word, arí, comes to mean both "friend" and "enemy," as a semantic development of "stranger," or so Gershevitch seems to suggest.

Might be a little off-topic, but that leads me to wonder: What other words in Indo-European languages come from that root? Could "stranger" be the English derivation, or is it of a different descent?
 
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Leo Caesius

Banned
Might be a little off-topic, but that leads me to wonder: What other words in Indo-European languages come from that root? Could "stranger" be the English derivation, or is it of a different descent?
Stranger is actually from Latin, by way of French; it's cognate with the word "extra," via a derived adjective extraneus.

According to Pokorny (Indogermanisches Etymologisches Woerterbuch, pp. 24-26, in case anyone cares), this particular word (Vedic arí) is from the Indo-European root *al-(1) or possibly *ol- "besides; other." Some cognates you may recognize include Latinate words such as ulterior, ultimate, alter, and alias, the Greek prefix allo- (as in allophone), the ethnic name Alan (as in the nomadic tribe), and there are naturally cognates in Tocharian.
 

CalBear

Moderator
Donor
Monthly Donor
I understand it must be very difficult to admit that Europeans are a sort of crossbreed between Asian men and Middle-Eastern women, who later adapted to Ice Age conditions...:cool:

Could we talk about religion, culture, technology, agriculture, etc?

ALL humans are decended from an African ancestor. Everything after that is nothing but noise.
 
This is utterly ridiculous. You're viciously insulting two other posters for saying "woah" and referring to you in the third person... completely normal parts of any informal conversation, especially on the internet.

Of course, you've done worse before outside this thread. Ah, there's more...



Falsely implying that another poster is a Nazi. If you were "sorry" you wouldn't have done it.



The irony, it burns.

For failure to show hospitality and tolerance, among other things, I'm kicking you for a week. Once again, you can't just go around having a vicious reaction to some trivial thing that wasn't meant in any negative way.

That is a nice patchwork of older posts.

I know I am a bit oversensitive, Ian, but sometimes, believe me, it helps.

I would like you to put yourself in Aryaman's shoes, just for an instant.

You are that guy behind his computer screen, and you discover for the first time that very cool site on alternate history. You drink your beer, have a few cookies, and start typing. You tell yourself: "Gee, I would so much like to post a thread on this brilliant site... How am I going to contribute? Now, you have a good idea. Yes, a thread about Hitler! My first thread, my first post, my first time line will be 'WI Hitler died in 1941?'! This will give me the opportunity to make Germany win (at least for a few years, but that's enough for a wank, isn't it?).

But how am I going to call myself? Yeahhh. Aryaman, that is such a good name! I love Hinduism, and I am fascinated by Hindu mythology, am I not?

Of course, I hope that everyone will be so dumb as not to understand what I am aiming at, so I will tell them that I am a fan of Hinduism. That way, they will not understand who I am, and I will make fun of them. This will be so hilarious!

But there was that idiot of Louis XI who came to tell me that, well, may be, I was making fun of him and other posters. So I changed my signature in order to deceive them further. Thus Louis XI was kicked, and I won.

Now it's good to only have to withdraw one letter to one's real name, and suddenly become accepted by everyone. 'Aryan Man' is not a very good name when you submit a thread about Hitler as your first post, first thread and first timeline. Aryaman sounds so much better, doesn't it?

My post count yesterday:

-17 posts about 'WI Hitler is killed in July 1941?'
-4 in 'Mummies of the Tarim Basin'
-1 about 'Alternate Spain'
-1 about 'Francis I instead of Charles V'

Hitler takes the cake, doesn't he?

Was I wrong about Aryaman? Was I right? Well, I do not know for sure. But do not expect my apologies. I did not use the word nazi, as you did, Ian, I only said that I did not like the first part of Aryaman's name. You used that word, not I.

That may be 'falsely implying' that he is a nazi, as you put it, but I did not take the risk of defending someone like him. You did.

And I am sure Aryaman will give us a very good explanation that will get me banned. But I, at least, have a clear conscience.

P.S.: I was fully aware, from the start, that Aryaman was a Hindu deity. This did not preclude me from still hearing that word as it sounds. There is something behind etymology, Leo. Words have an aesthetic resonance. Aryaman was fully aware of that, but this did not preclude him from using that name, which could be misconstrued, while posting his first thread about Hitler. Would you post your first thread about Hitler and call yourself Aryaman? You certainly would not, because you would understand that you might be taken for a nazi. Either Aryaman is very naive, very Hindu, or very something else (you know, a word used by Ian)...
 

Ian the Admin

Administrator
Donor
I would like you to put yourself in Aryaman's shoes, just for an instant.

Unlike you, I don't engage in paranoid speculations about people who haven't done anything wrong. I have no idea what it's like to be in the shoes of a stranger over the internet, and if I did I wouldn't try to interpret their behavior according to what I personally might do.

You're making an extremely serious accusation based on extremely trivial "evidence" against someone who has done nothing at all offensive. There are not going to be any House Un-Alternate History Activities Committees set up on this board. I warned you about that before. This is your last warning. You're kicked for a week.
 
Hi,
having been exiled in the netherworld of un-alternate history, I have had a lot of time to do research, so here I am, coming up with a lot of goodies!

Here is an interview with Victor Mair, the researcher who discovered the mummies in the Urumchi museum and brought them to the attention of the American public:

http://www.archaeology.org/online/interviews/mair.html

Here is an article from the Independent (British), about Elizabeth Wayland Barber. She is the researcher who established the link between Tocharian and Celtic textiles found in Central Europe (Halstatt):

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-mystery-of-chinas-celtic-mummies-413638.html

I have just watched a Franco-Japanese programme on French TV about the mummies. It is a recent one.

They discovered a few things that may be of cultural import (Arctic Warrior might find that interesting):

-they buried women under phallic symbols.
-they buried men under feminine symbols.

-they buried their dead in coffins without bottoms and looking like canoes.

-the change of the course of a river was instrumental in the downfall of their civilization. Arctic warrior had already explained this.

-most importantly, they brought wheat in the region. The Chinese did not use it at that time, and did not even know about it. They found wheat seeds in a little pocket carried by one of the female mummies. According to the Chinese archaeologist (Idilisi Abuduresule), this is the oldest occurrence of wheat in the region, and possibly in all Asia.

-the preservation of the bodies is not entirely due to the dry conditions of the desert. They used a white substance that they applied all over the skins of their dead. Let me remind you of the fact that those bodies are better preserved than Egyptian mummies...

-once again, they confirmed the link between those mummies and European populations (using anthropological data).

-the programme believes that they were part of an Indo-European migration originating from around the Black Sea. The first mummies are 4000 years old. In the beginning, they are all European in appearance. Afterwards, there appears to have been acculturation with other nearby populations, especially in the 500 years B.C..
 
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Still, it is interesting to speculate ---

What I recall about the Tocarian culture is that it was badly placed, desertification of the area caused high death rates which made the people particularly suseptible to cultural 'extinction' (leaving genetics out).

It is interesting to speculate though, how different would the world be if the Tocarians had somehow been able to truly establish themselves, perhaps serving as a sort of power bloc to resist the Mongols. A sort of 'Prester John' kingdom that had a basis in fact.
 
What I recall about the Tocarian culture is that it was badly placed, desertification of the area caused high death rates which made the people particularly suseptible to cultural 'extinction' (leaving genetics out).

It is interesting to speculate though, how different would the world be if the Tocarians had somehow been able to truly establish themselves, perhaps serving as a sort of power bloc to resist the Mongols. A sort of 'Prester John' kingdom that had a basis in fact.

I must admit I had not thought of the literary or legendary implications for the existence of such a kingdom, much to my dismay, since I am a literary guy.

I find your allusion to the Kingdom of Priest John very interesting. I have seen a documentary about it, but it spoke mainly of Ethiopia, although many were those who thought it was actually situated in Asia.

I think the Romans had heard about them, but believed they lived in an island. Besides the relationship between this account and the Tocharians is uncertain...

There is also that tale about the 'Lost Roman Legion' (after a defeat against the Parthians). There are Chinese accounts which describe a battle fought against strangers with unusual military equipment. Some people in Asia claimed they were their offspring but it was contradicted by genetic data.
 
-they buried women under phallic symbols.
-they buried men under feminine symbols.
I'm going to make a wild guess, and say they believed one would be reincarnated (or enter the netherworld) as the opposite gender. If they did, and genuinely believed it, they might've been less inclined to misogyny than others would be, as they'd have to endure it themselves at some point.
 
Hi,
having been exiled in the netherworld of un-alternate history, I have had a lot of time to do research, so here I am, coming up with a lot of goodies!

Here is an interview with Victor Mair, the researcher who discovered the mummies in the Urumchi museum and brought them to the attention of the American public:

http://www.archaeology.org/online/interviews/mair.html

Here is an article from the Independent (British), about Elizabeth Wayland Barber. She is the researcher who established the link between Tocharian and Celtic textiles found in Central Europe (Halstatt):

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-mystery-of-chinas-celtic-mummies-413638.html

I have just watched a Franco-Japanese programme on French TV about the mummies. It is a recent one.

They discovered a few things that may be of cultural import (Arctic Warrior might find that interesting):

-they buried women under phallic symbols.
-they buried men under feminine symbols.

-they buried their dead in coffins without bottoms and looking like canoes.

-the change of the course of a river was instrumental in the downfall of their civilization. Arctic warrior had already explained this.

-most importantly, they brought wheat in the region. The Chinese did not use it at that time, and did not even know about it. They found wheat seeds in a little pocket carried by one of the female mummies. According to the Chinese archaeologist (Idilisi Abuduresule), this is the oldest occurrence of wheat in the region, and possibly in all Asia.

-the preservation of the bodies is not entirely due to the dry conditions of the desert. They used a white substance that they applied all over the skins of their dead. Let me remind you of the fact that those bodies are better preserved than Egyptian mummies...

-once again, they confirmed the link between those mummies and European populations (using anthropological data).

-the programme believes that they were part of an Indo-European migration originating from around the Black Sea. The first mummies are 4000 years old. In the beginning, they are all European in appearance. Afterwards, there appears to have been acculturation with other nearby populations, especially in the 500 years B.C..

The wheat is interesting as is the TV-programme you refer to as it serve to strenghten the Ryan/Pitman theory about the great flood and subsequent great migration. :)

I'm going to make a wild guess, and say they believed one would be reincarnated (or enter the netherworld) as the opposite gender. If they did, and genuinely believed it, they might've been less inclined to misogyny than others would be, as they'd have to endure it themselves at some point.

Some Danish scholars argue that during the Bronze age there was a belief that things in the netherworld would be upside down, hence men with feminine symbols, women with phallic symbols. A person needing a sword in the netherworld would be given a small model which would turn into a true sword in the netherworld as would a small model of a building turn into adequete housing. And the coffins would be real boats when entering the netherworld.
I also read something on BBC.co.uk about a bronze age finding on some British beach with things turned upside down!
 
Some Danish scholars argue that during the Bronze age there was a belief that things in the netherworld would be upside down, hence men with feminine symbols, women with phallic symbols.

I was just wondering why these were bottomless coffins (aside from the practical aspect of not using too much wood)...

I was telling myself: how dumb those Tocharians were! A bottomless boat cannot float. But apparently the Tocharians were cleverer than I am.

If things have to be turned upside down, and if you want to reemerge on the other side, then it is best indeed to be buried in a "bottomless" coffin. Otherwise, once on the other side, you would live a remake of "Kill Bill", second part, in the role of Uma Thurman!

Just a thought...although a dumb one!:rolleyes:
 
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