No Successful Muslim invasions of India

Say one or several of the Hindu states head of Muslim attacks from the Arabs, Persians, Turks and whoever else established the Delhi Sultanate and the Mughal Empire. And for the sake of this, the Hindu Kush is the western border of Hindustan.

Off the top of my head, no Sikhs, no Urdu and no Muslim missionaries to Malaya. These have important effects of their own. What else can you think of? Does this help or hinder Muslim conquests in other areas?

Signing off now, will check on this in the morning.
 
Pretty sure Muslim spread to Malaya through trade. Islam is a great trust builder with traders. Arabia does a lot of trading so I doubt that would change.
 
It may bniot do much to Islamic conquests in other areas, but it would have interesting repercussions for Hinduism. We might see a very different development with more aggressively proselytising branches.
 
No successful Muslim invasions of India means that there would be no Pakistan will exist today because Arabs cannot conquer India and Indonesia, Malaysia, Brunei today would be Hindu because Arabs doesn't conquer India (use as a stopover by the Arabs for Malay Archipelago).
 
No successful Muslim invasions of India means that there would be no Pakistan will exist today because Arabs cannot conquer India and Indonesia, Malaysia, Brunei today would be Hindu because Arabs doesn't conquer India (use as a stopover by the Arabs for Malay Archipelago).

Arab incursion on India was to no further than Multan, though. If so than maybe Arab conquest to the east would be only up to Persia and Bactria (Afghanistan). I don't know if this will negate any more muslim incursion to the region, but I don't think Islam can't spread with other means, such as prosetylization through trade, like usual. And because the general Arab interest towards eastern goods, such as pepper, I don't think the possibility Indonesia and the other Malay states going to be muslim TTL wouldn't be likely. I mean even before the Umayyads seized the control, an Arab emissary had already visited China...
 
Pretty sure Muslim spread to Malaya through trade. Islam is a great trust builder with traders. Arabia does a lot of trading so I doubt that would change.

That's a fair point, but I doubt it would become so Muslim. Perhaps a few more Hindu or Buddhist states remain, as well as a few sultanates.

It may bniot do much to Islamic conquests in other areas, but it would have interesting repercussions for Hinduism. We might see a very different development with more aggressively proselytising branches.

To counteract Muslim influence in the Malay lands, perhaps? In the one-time Indic states in Cambodia and Vietnam? To the Muslim lands in the west or down the African coast?

No successful Muslim invasions of India means that there would be no Pakistan will exist today because Arabs cannot conquer India and Indonesia, Malaysia, Brunei today would be Hindu because Arabs doesn't conquer India (use as a stopover by the Arabs for Malay Archipelago).

That raises a question: How good were Arab ships at this time? Did they have to make stops in India? Well, it's not as though a port city could refuse to accept a ship based on the religion of its captain and crew. Especially when we're talking cold, hard cash.

Arab incursion on India was to no further than Multan, though. If so than maybe Arab conquest to the east would be only up to Persia and Bactria (Afghanistan). I don't know if this will negate any more muslim incursion to the region, but I don't think Islam can't spread with other means, such as prosetylization through trade, like usual. And because the general Arab interest towards eastern goods, such as pepper, I don't think the possibility Indonesia and the other Malay states going to be muslim TTL wouldn't be likely. I mean even before the Umayyads seized the control, an Arab emissary had already visited China...

You used a lot of double negs. I think I agree with you. :eek:

Further questions: Buddhism was still a powerful force in parts of India, Kashmir and Bengal. How would they manage without pressures from Muslim missionaries? Also, horses. Any army going through the passes is going to have cavalry and lack of sufficient horses has always been an Achilles heel to Indian warfare. Would it be possible or likely to trade some of that silver always flowing into India for some horses from China, or the Muslims that they're occasionally warring against? How would Arabian breeds fare under Indian climates?
 
A lot depends on where you define India to be, but Buddhism may be stronger in the north (for a lot of the same reasons Islam took root among so much of the lower castes).

No successful Muslim invasions of India means that there would be no Pakistan will exist today because Arabs cannot conquer India and Indonesia, Malaysia, Brunei today would be Hindu because Arabs doesn't conquer India (use as a stopover by the Arabs for Malay Archipelago).
Point of order, Islam was spread by trade an missionary work rather than conquest (even in India there was a lot of bottom-up conversions the local overlords did not activly seek).

Islam may have less of a presence on the subcontinent, but would be more heavily weighted toward the south.

HTG
 
First of all; it's good to see you back, ES. :)

I, for one, really missed you.

Arab incursion on India was to no further than Multan, though. If so than maybe Arab conquest to the east would be only up to Persia and Bactria (Afghanistan). I don't know if this will negate any more muslim incursion to the region, but I don't think Islam can't spread with other means, such as prosetylization through trade, like usual. And because the general Arab interest towards eastern goods, such as pepper, I don't think the possibility Indonesia and the other Malay states going to be muslim TTL wouldn't be likely. I mean even before the Umayyads seized the control, an Arab emissary had already visited China...

I'd say that an Islamization of Indonesia is going to be less likely without a strong Muslim presence in India.

Not impossible, but certainly less likely.

Indeed, there was a (very small) presence of Muslim traders in Indonesia from as early as the 8th century, but it was for a good part due to the rise of Muslim states like the Sultanate of Bengal that Muslim merciants became so influential in Indonesia in OTL.

Without a powerful and wealthy Muslim state in Bengal, the influence of Muslim traders is going to be weaker, as there was a lot of trade between Indonesia and eastern India (and specifically Bengal). And without a strong Muslim presence in Bengal, Muslims will play only a minor role in this trade, as opposed to the significant role they played in this trade in OTL.

And we shouldn't forget about the fairly significant role that Bengali Muslim missionairies and scholars played in the propagation of Islam in Indonesia.

Exactly what would happen in Indonesia without a Muslim Bengal is hard to say, as the Islamization of Indonesia was a very complex process that took centuries and in which lots of different factors were involved.

But nonetheless, the OTL Islamization of Indonesia really got started when the Majapahit Empire began to crumble and a number of Muslim principalities (along with Hindu principalities) arose in its wake. These Muslim principalities, strenghtened by their ties with the rest of the Muslim world, then conquered or absorbed most of the remaining Hindu principalities, resulting in Islam becoming the dominant religion in the region.

Now then, if the influence of Islam and Muslim mercaints does not become strong enough to lead to the rise of significant Muslim states in the wake of the Majapahit's decline, then the Islamization of Indonesia could very well be butterflied away, with Islam not becoming any more significant in Indonesia than it became in, say, Kerala or Sri Lanka.

Further questions: Buddhism was still a powerful force in parts of India, Kashmir and Bengal. How would they manage without pressures from Muslim missionaries?

The political and religious influence of Buddhism in India was actually already deteriorating when the Muslims invaded.

In fact, by the time the Ghurids and Ghaznavids invaded (i.e. the first time the Muslims actually got a firm foothold in northern India), North Indian Buddhism was already in the process of being reabsorbed into Hinduism.

The decline of Indian Buddhism certainly was worsened by the destruction of many Buddhist temples, monasteries and universities at the hands of the Ghurids and Ghaznavids, but even if these invasions don't happen, Indian Buddhism is, in all likelyhood, still going to face a serious decline.

Buddhism in India could very well remain stronger than it was in IOTL, but unless it is reinvigorated by the rise of a new Buddhist empire in northern India (this could happen if the Mongols conquer northern India ITTL before becoming Islamized, and subsequently adopted Buddhism - many of the Khans of the Chagatai and Il-Khanates were Buddhists, so there could very well be a number of Buddhist Khans in an ATL Indian Khanate), it is still doomed to become a minor religion in India.

A lot depends on where you define India to be, but Buddhism may be stronger in the north (for a lot of the same reasons Islam took root among so much of the lower castes).

True, but Buddhism already was stronger in the north than in the south, and northern India also produced at least two great Buddhist empires; the Maurya empire and the Pala empire.

The south, on the other hand, remained overwhelmingly Hindu, while Buddhism IIRC never really gained a firm foothold there.

With the exception of Sri Lanka and IIRC the Maledives(*), of course.


* IIRC the population of the Maledives was Buddhist prior to its Islamization, but I'm not 100% sure on this.

Point of order, Islam was spread by trade an missionary work rather than conquest (even in India there was a lot of bottom-up conversions the local overlords did not activly seek).

Yes and no - indeed Islam was often spread by merciants and wandering Sufi mystics, and there were indeed quite a few of local Muslim rulers who were more interested in tax-farming or occasionally looting the non-Muslim population rather than make attempts at converting them.

But you should keep in mind that the presence of these merciants and Sufis was, either directly or indirectly, the result of political Muslim dominance in the area.

After the Ghurids and the Ghaznavids had consolidated their conquests in northern India, an influx of Central Asian Muslim merciants and Sufi preachers followed, particularly after the Mongols had conquered and destroyed the Khwarezmian Sultanate.

In other words; though these bottom-up conversions you mention were indeed often the result of merciants and preachers who were often acting independantly from the local Muslim authorities, their presence in India was nonetheless still a result of the Muslim conquest.

Without the Muslim conquest of India, Muslim merciants would have far less influence in India, and the economic ties with Central Asia wouldn't be quite as strong and close as they were in OTL.

And without the Sultanate of Delhi as a refuge, most of the refugees from Khwarezmia will most propably end up elsewhere, such as southern Persia or the Caliphate of Baghdad.

Thus, there is still going to be significantly less Muslim influence in northern India without the Muslim invasions.

Islam may have less of a presence on the subcontinent, but would be more heavily weighted toward the south.

I agree - southern India would still be exposed to Arab, Persian and Swahili Muslim merciants, and a lot of them would end up settling there, thus establishing a fairly small but still significant Muslim community.
 
Last edited:
First of all; it's good to see you back, ES. :)

I, for one, really missed you.

Thanks.

The political and religious influence of Buddhism in India was actually already deteriorating when the Muslims invaded.

In fact, by the time the Ghurids and Ghaznavids invaded (i.e. the first time the Muslims actually got a firm foothold in northern India), North Indian Buddhism was already in the process of being reabsorbed into Hinduism.

The decline of Indian Buddhism certainly was worsened by the destruction of many Buddhist temples, monasteries and universities at the hands of the Ghurids and Ghaznavids, but even if these invasions don't happen, Indian Buddhism is, in all likelyhood, still going to face a serious decline.

Buddhism in India could very well remain stronger than it was in IOTL, but unless it is reinvigorated by the rise of a new Buddhist empire in northern India (this could happen if the Mongols conquer northern India ITTL before becoming Islamized, and subsequently adopted Buddhism - many of the Khans of the Chagatai and Il-Khanates were Buddhists, so there could very well be a number of Buddhist Khans in an ATL Indian Khanate), it is still doomed to become a minor religion in India.

No chance of a resurgence? Or even more Buddhist qualities being absorbed by mainstream Hindus?
 

bard32

Banned
Say one or several of the Hindu states head of Muslim attacks from the Arabs, Persians, Turks and whoever else established the Delhi Sultanate and the Mughal Empire. And for the sake of this, the Hindu Kush is the western border of Hindustan.

Off the top of my head, no Sikhs, no Urdu and no Muslim missionaries to Malaya. These have important effects of their own. What else can you think of? Does this help or hinder Muslim conquests in other areas?

Signing off now, will check on this in the morning.

Well, the Muslims invaded India several times before the Mughals. All of which
were unsuccessful because the natives were able to defeat them. What's the POD on this?
 
No chance of a resurgence?

Well, I guess that a Buddhist resurgence in northern India would still remain a possebility, but the chances of this happening would be relatively small.

Or even more Buddhist qualities being absorbed by mainstream Hindus?

Well, that too would be a possebility, but I'm affraid that I don't know enough about the details of the interaction between Indian Buddhism and contemporary Hindu movements to properly answer the question of how much Buddhist influences would be absorbed into various forms of Hinduism.

If I recall correctly, the Hindu movements that competed with Buddhism the most put great emphasis on devotion to the gods/the Divine.

I wouldn't be suprised if these Hindu movements were more likely to root out certain Buddhist concepts rather than incorporating them.
 
As others have said, this won't really stop the spread of Islam in SE Asia (and South India). Islam developed in South India through trade, forming a medium sized Muslim minority.

What's likely to happen, though, is Islam retaining this role in SE Asia, as opposed to becoming the dominant religion. Much like in OTL South India, you might see the development of a Muslim mercantile class while the bulk of the population remains Hindu/Buddhist syncretic.
 
Well, the Muslims invaded India several times before the Mughals. All of which were unsuccessful because the natives were able to defeat them.

Err, no - during the 11th century, the Ghurids and Ghaznavids successfully invaded and conquered northern India, and this resulted in the establishment of the Sultanate of Delhi, which reached its zenith around 1300 AD, and even briefly managed to conquer southern India.

During the 14th and 15th centuries, the Sultanate of Delhi dwindled and a number of Hindu and Muslim states broke away from it, and when the Mughals came in the 15th century, they basically conquered the remnants and successor states of the Delhi Sultanate.

And there was at least one more or less successful Muslim invasion of India before the Ghurids and the Ghaznavids; when Mohammed Qasem invaded India, he managed to conquer a good part of the lower and central Indus valley.

And even though much of his conquests were lost relatively soon, while the remaining territories devolved into two effectively independant Muslim statelets (one centered in Mansura, the other in Multan), his invasion still resulted into a lasting Muslim presence in the westernmost part of India.
 
Everything east of India remains removed from becoming Muslim. As Flocc said, what you would probably see is Muslims forming a minority within the merchant classes.

Something like Bhakti might become more popular, along with a number of other things. Nalanda isn't destroyed, so that's a plus for Buddhism, whether or not it ends up getting subsumed into Hinduism. However, the cosmopolitanism of the Muslim world is likely gone from India, which is rather sad.
 

Mookie

Banned
I think India would remain divided. Without foreign unifying factor the regional identities will remain too strong to form an united India. Which might end up in Hindu union like the EU of today.

I dont know how often Hindu's waged wars against each other before Islam, but considering how many ancient countries existed during the Islamic conquest I will guess not much, or at least not wars of conquest.

Which might leave India open for early colonization by Spaniards or Portugese.

On a plus note Timurid conquests dont hapen so a lot of people are alive :D
 
Aryavarta:

First, welcome to the board! Second, reviving long dead threads (this one and the "Alexander the great continues his invasion of India" thread) is frowned upon.
 
Top