PC: France Splits in the Eighteenth Century

[EvolvedSaurian]

Buggering newfangled acronyms...

So, I have an original and perhaps even interesting idea for a TL.

The problem is, it hinges on a fracturing of France in the mid-late 1700s, preferably along provincial lines, where the King of France rules a reduced Ile-de-France and little else.

But, how could this be accomplished? Could or would the nobles revolt and then fall among themselves for the spoils?

Help?

 

[archaeogeek]

Louis XV dies during the regency, making Phillip V the sole realistic heir of both countries?
IOTL there were a lot of conjurations at the time in some provinces even when Louis XV was still alive and I'm not quite sure Phillip V would have the best of situations trying to hold onto it if he ends up with the entire Franco-Hispanic imperial economy imploding because of Law's bankruptcy.

It's the only thing I can think of right now and I'm not so sure it's that plausible.

 

[Alex Richards]

Louis XV dies during the regency, making Phillip V the sole realistic heir of both countries?
IOTL there were a lot of conjurations at the time in some provinces even when Louis XV was still alive and I'm not quite sure Phillip V would have the best of situations trying to hold onto it if he ends up with the entire Franco-Hispanic imperial economy imploding because of Law's bankruptcy.

It's the only thing I can think of right now and I'm not so sure it's that plausible.

Hmmm. Anne is still Queen-Claimant of France and Duke of Normandy. Perhaps we see an expedition to enforce this (as well as weaken France). Normandy becomes another state in personal union with Britain, Calais, Boulogne and a few other ports directly annexed, Austrian Habsburgs restore the former boundaries of the Spanish netherlands (including Kingdom of Burgundy), Alsace broken off as a newly independent state of the HRE. Britain manages to lop Brittany off as a freindly state (possibly in Personal union also). Perhaps we see the Jacobites offered the crown of Brittany, Anjou, Maine and/or Aquitane (depending on how succesfull the break up is) in return for giving up on the British claim?

Of course, this is assuming that such a division is actually able to be pulled off.

 

[archaeogeek]

Hmmm. Anne is still Queen-Claimant of France and Duke of Normandy. Perhaps we see an expedition to enforce this (as well as weaken France). Normandy becomes another state in personal union with Britain, Calais, Boulogne and a few other ports directly annexed, Austrian Habsburgs restore the former boundaries of the Spanish netherlands (including Kingdom of Burgundy), Alsace broken off as a newly independent state of the HRE. Britain manages to lop Brittany off as a freindly state (possibly in Personal union also). Perhaps we see the Jacobites offered the crown of Brittany, Anjou, Maine and/or Aquitane (depending on how succesfull the break up is) in return for giving up on the British claim?

Of course, this is assuming that such a division is actually able to be pulled off.

Anne is no such thing; the french claim had long died except as a fantasy that took too long to go away, and would be laughed off by anyone on the continent backing them until that point especially as it would make Britain far too powerful (also you'd have a war of spanish succession type situation except with France in open revolt all over against the British unless she decided to lay off the anti-catholic laws; and no she can't exactly fall back on the huguenots because they're barely 1% of the french population at this point), while the claim to the title of duke of Normandy was abandoned in in the middle ages and the idea that any king or queen of England (post-Brétigny) or Great Britain before Victoria used this style is a complete, utter, absolutely ridiculous fantasy of victorian antiquarians (and for a woman it's duchess, not "duke", especially for an old french peerage where women could reign in their own right without this kind of ridiculous wrangling): It shows up in the styles of no king of England after that, even in the absurdly long style of Queen Mary which includes every single Habsburg title until that point.

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

I can't think of a PoD that would allow France's splitting in the 1700s, I don't think.

Oh. You COULD have Republican France (Paris) and Royalist France (parts of the periphery) in 1798 or so if the French revolution went a different way. But I doubt that's early enough.

France is already pretty centralized by Louis XIV and I don't see any real way to split the country 50-100 years later.

Nibble bits off the edges, yes. Split the country into multiple 'France's? no

 

[archaeogeek]

I can't think of a PoD that would allow France's splitting in the 1700s, I don't think.

Oh. You COULD have Republican France (Paris) and Royalist France (parts of the periphery) in 1798 or so if the French revolution went a different way. But I doubt that's early enough.

France is already pretty centralized by Louis XIV and I don't see any real way to split the country 50-100 years later.

Nibble bits off the edges, yes. Split the country into multiple 'France's? no

Yeah my solution would result in something like Aquitaine and the core northern provinces remain spanish, the duke of Orleans becomes king of Burgundy with the south-eastern provinces and a bunch of peripheral provinces become independent-ish principalities in Franco-Spanish orbit.

This idea floated at the time as a rumor as far as I can tell but I'd need to dig up a source to confirm because I can't remember where i took it from.

 

[Alex Richards]

Anne is no such thing; the french claim had long died except as a fantasy that took too long to go away, and would be laughed off by anyone on the continent backing them until that point especially as it would make Britain far too powerful (also you'd have a war of spanish succession type situation except with France in open revolt all over against the British unless she decided to lay off the anti-catholic laws; and no she can't exactly fall back on the huguenots because they're barely 1% of the french population at this point), while the claim to the title of duke of Normandy was abandoned in in the middle ages and the idea that any king or queen of England (post-Brétigny) or Great Britain before Victoria used this style is a complete, utter, absolutely ridiculous fantasy of victorian antiquarians (and for a woman it's duchess, not "duke", especially for an old french peerage where women could reign in their own right without this kind of ridiculous wrangling): It shows up in the styles of no king of England after that, even in the absurdly long style of Queen Mary which includes every single Habsburg title until that point.

OK. What about having the Jacobites get some of the land as an alternative (dragging up the claim from the English). They hardly like the incoming Hannovarians, are Catholics and more French than English. And what about the possibility of the Habsburgs going 1648 on France's Eastern Border?

 

[archaeogeek]

OK. What about having the Jacobites get some of the land as an alternative (dragging up the claim from the English). They hardly like the incoming Hannovarians, are Catholics and more French than English. And what about the possibility of the Habsburgs going 1648 on France's Eastern Border?

I don't think this would do much to Balkanize France. A Bourbon and a "Savoie-Stuart" France might show up but I don't think it would last long especially if the Bourbon one was Languedoc and Aquitaine, not particularly wealthy regions.
However it would likely lead to the kingdom of Sardinia becoming a province (well, 2) of France in the longer run. (Quite simply short of alien space bats changing religious attitudes in Britain a century early, there is no way they'll hold onto a country like France, not even half of it)

 

[EvolvedSaurian]

So, the consensus seems to be no?

Bugger.

 

[Velasco]

Louis XV dies before 1723, leaving the throne disputed between his uncle Philip V of Spain and his cousin once removed Philippe II, Duc d'Orléans. Orléans' death in 1723 could lead to dispute between his son, Duc Louis d'Orléans, and son-in-law, the Prince of Conti, and kinsman the Duke of Bourbon. Philip V's abdication of the Spanish throne in 1724 could work both in his favour or against him; ie, he could either make a full bid for the French throne and abandon the Spanish entirely, or he could attempt to take the French throne as well as the Spanish one upon the death of his son, Luís I. Other close relatives, such as James Francis Edward Stuart, being both grandson of the princesse Henrietta Maria and heir of the traditional English claims to the French throne, could be put forward as potential claimants to the crown by one or other political faction. Religious concerns, greed, court politics, dynastic considerations, Papal and foreign involvement, could all be brought into play causing internal civil war between various French factions, either supported by or fighting against Spanish aggressors. The death of Philip V of Spain (either prematurely or on the historical date of 1743) could lead to conflict between his sons, King Ferdinand V of Spain and Charles, not only over the French throne but also over the family's Italian possessions.

Between them, with foreign aid or support, I'm sure something awesome could be worked out.

Ie, James Francis Edward Stuart supported by the Duke of Bourbon and other French nobles opposed to both the Spanish and Orléans. Orléans supported by the English who have no wish to see James Francis Edward empowered in any way shape or form. And the Spanish, by brute force, managing to wrest for themselves considerable swathes of land on the fringes of the Kingdom, either to add to Spain or to set up as an independent feudatory for a younger son. Remember how in medieval times two Kingdoms of France existed? The real one comprising pretty much all of modern France, and the mostly titular one held by the Tudors, comprising the Pale of Calais and very briefly the city of Tournai. So something like that could happen, with the opposing claimants disputing the title amongst themselves and all presenting themselves as the sole true Kings of France.