PC: India Invades Persia
- Thread starter Errnge
- Start date
Pretty much. Both Persia and India are historically rich countries with rich and complex cultures, but in a head to head matchup, the Persians are the barbarian invaders; and only Rome ever bothered to go and conquer barbarian invaders. It's very unusual for a state to actively chase its possible enemies into the mountains just for existing. On the other hand, many Indian states certainly had opportunities when Persia could have been conquered, so the idea is not out of the question.
Because he was bored?
For every bored North Indian ruler there is a deccan plateau to go kill his empire in.
To my understanding, such a practice was commonplace among the Chinese emperors.
well I suppose that's why it was rather common for groups in Persia and Bactria area to invade India and not the other way around.
I suppose an opportunity to invade might be to crush a potential threat?
Yeah, but that was just for fun, when they got bored. (I'm almost entirely serious). Chinese expansion was accomplished on a long-term, multi-dynasty scale with the inexorable waves of Han Chinese immigrants out of their northern heartland across all of what is today China. The process continues to this day in Xinjiang and Tibet and Inner Mongolia.
To deal with barbarians, the Chinese just built walls, and when that failed, they raised massive infantry armies.
There has only been a few potential threats to India from that area, and they were either from Afghanistan, not Persia, or from Persia at a time where it was impossible for the Indian ruler to fight back. The former is exemplified in the Indo-Greeks and Ghaznavids, and the latter in the Afsharids who attacked a very weak Mughals.
We've been thinking in terms of land-based invasions.
What if both Iran and the Arab states were acting as greedy middlemen between Ottoman/European and Indian trade? In that scenario, a navally powerful Indian state could potentially launch a limited invasion along the Persian Gulf to establish a base for direct trade or force Persia to acquiesce to better terms for trade.
I can't think of a time when all three necessary conditions (powerful naval Indian state, large Indo-European trade, and weak middleman Iran) coexisted. Can you guys think of any, or think of ways to create that scenario?
What if both Iran and the Arab states were acting as greedy middlemen between Ottoman/European and Indian trade? In that scenario, a navally powerful Indian state could potentially launch a limited invasion along the Persian Gulf to establish a base for direct trade or force Persia to acquiesce to better terms for trade.
I can't think of a time when all three necessary conditions (powerful naval Indian state, large Indo-European trade, and weak middleman Iran) coexisted. Can you guys think of any, or think of ways to create that scenario?
The issue is that in the case of powerful Indian naval states based in an area where being a naval nation is more advantageous than a land nation(mainly southern India), they have generally turned more to South East Asia. The fact of the matter is that since they have all the resources, and the Westerners come to them, they get to set the terms and costs and barring the westerners coming and establishing bases they have all the negotiating power.
Afghanistan was quite a valuable region, if only for its mineral wealth (world's only source of lapis lazuli!). But invading and conquering Afghanistan from a Persian Empire is not the same as trying to conquer Persia itself. I can't see that a state at full stretch trying to keep India together would have the spare time/energy to try to conquer somewhere as far off as Persia.
Flocculencio
Donor
No point. Any kingdom based in North India will have better things to do than try to extend their control over seriously bad terrain to hold the Iranian Plateau which, for it's size, is much poorer.
Any kingdom based in South India will be looking outward to SE Asia as a previous poster pointed out.
Any kingdom based in South India will be looking outward to SE Asia as a previous poster pointed out.
As much as a South Indian naval power will be oriented towards SE Asia, they would also want to develop good trade relations with Europe. I could see an Indian power launching a limited takeover of an Iranian port on the Persian Gulf to secure trade rights or eliminate middlemen. I just can't think of a time in history when the stars aligned for such as scenario.
Flocculencio
Donor
The thing is, in any preindustrial scenario there's no reason for them to want to develop good trade relations with Europe. Europe has nothing they need. It's Europeans who have to come to them for trade.
In a spice trade scenario extending dominance over SE Asia makes sense as it brings the spice under control. Trying to secure ports further West wouldn't really make financial sense since with or without them the traders still hav to come.
You're right, of course; as I said, I couldn't think of a time when the three necessary conditions aligned.
Ceranthor
Banned
If the Cholas somehow manage to survive for another few centuries, could they possibly try to expand westward as well as eastward? Seizing Hormuz or some other coastal cities might win them a better share of the Gulf trade, which they probably would want to capitalize on...
EDIT: Just read Flocc's post; it probably wouldn't be realistic for something like that to happen. But if for some reason the Chola king decides he wants a city on the gulf, what are the logistical chances of it actually succeeding?
EDIT: Just read Flocc's post; it probably wouldn't be realistic for something like that to happen. But if for some reason the Chola king decides he wants a city on the gulf, what are the logistical chances of it actually succeeding?
Flocculencio
Donor
I suppose if some king decided he really really wanted to it would be technically doable. It probably wouldn't be profitable and one suspects the project would be th first thing cancelled if the crown happened to need a bit of money for something else
Ak-84
Banned
To echo other posters the question that needs to be asked is......."and do what exactly"? He does not need the(very limited( riches and their is the Indus, the Hindu Kush and the Balochi desert to cover the flank. If their is going to be any fighting, its going to be where it always has been, which is the Quetta, Kandahar, Zahedan triangle an its going to be defensive in nature for any Indian ruler.