Pet peeve on discussion of 2nd Sino-Japanese War, y'all know Nanjing Massacre was stuck in the memory hole for 60 years, don't you?

raharris1973

Gone Fishin'
Japan would likely need to revise their policy as Indonesian wont accept Japanese Nanking massacre at this point.

One thing I've noticed alot in 20th century discussions about militarist Japan is reference to the Nanjing massacre as the catch-all, focal point of Japanese atrocities, and the Nanjing Massacre (probably better known at the time as the 'Rape of Nanking') being treated as something that anyone who the Japanese dealt with anywhere in the 1930s and 1940s would have known about and hated/distrusted the Japanese over at the time.

This is a massive projection backward of the notoriety, focus, and revival of interest the Nanjing massacre inspired since the publication of Iris Chang's book about the massacre in the 1990s, and later works it inspired. Although the rape/massacre of Nanjing was an international scandal at the time it happened among pro-Chinese circles and left-wing and anti-fascist circles, it wasn't all-consuming, took place in a time filled to the brim with nasty, international news, and didn't make a decisive impression on all people's the Japanese encountered in all places they went in their military campaigns through WWII, where millions of people either didn't have exposure to news of the massacre or ranked its importance lower than other things when making decisions related to Japanese invaders/occupiers.

Certainly, it was an awful atrocity for real, no doubt about that, and it did motivate more determined Chinese resistance for rational reasons. The Chinese Nationalist regime also exploited it for full propaganda value to gain sympathy, support, try to exert world economic and diplomatic pressures on Japan. But that was a long, slow, campaign that didn't work until a bunch of other intervening factors, like the Japanese tripartite pact with Germany, and provocations, like the Japanese occupation of French Indochina, emerged over the next 3 plus years after the massacre.

The massacre was cited for American audiences in Frank Capra's 'Why We Fight' series, the 'Battle of China' series during WWII. But after the end of the war, and the Tokyo War Crimes trials, and with the shift of focus to post-war rebuilding, and the Cold War, the massacre was basically forgotten, except for direct survivors, for about fifty years and consigned to the memory hole or memory locker for fifty years, until the 1990s and Iris Chang's book. The Chinese Nationalist regime, holding out against Communist conquest and economically dependent on Japan in the Cold War, didn't dwell on it alot. The Chinese Communists, who weren't in the Nanjing area resisting in force and who really were focused on getting Japanese trade and aid in the 1970s and 1980s and early 1990s didn't dwell on it alot.

It was remembered and rediscovered when well-written works were published on it internationally and when it was politically convenient for the message to be amplified. It's somewhat like how the Holocaust wasn't widely known, named, or discussed in full gruesome detail in terms of all its particular victims and perpetrators until a couple decades after WWII. It wasn't exactly unknown, but the number of people who studied, obsessed, wrote, and cared about it was limited to smallish circle immediately after the war, until an explosion in scholarship and commemoration in the 1970s.

Anyway, back from the Holocaust tangent.

What does this observation mean about the Nanjing massacre and scenarios involving militarist Japan?

Basically, Japanese atrocities in Nanjing were going to be far more relevant to the Chinese, and ethnic Chinese living in Southeast Asia, than any other local ethnic group in the areas Japan invaded or nearly invaded.

For ethnic Vietnamese, Burmese, Indians, Malays, Javans, Thai, it was something nasty that happened to other people they didn't know well. At the outset of the war, much closer to top of mind for these groups were last nasty things that the French, British, or Dutch did to them. The French, British, and Dutch authorities certainly weren't worth fighting for to many of these folks, except inasmuch as they were fighting for a paycheck, career and their buddies in the unit. It took their own personal experience of getting bombed by the Japanese or getting abused face-to-face by the Japanese, not vicarious experience of people in far away China, for the amounts of anti-Japanese sentiment that did emerge to develop.

British, French, or Dutch marveling at how these colonial subjects could acquiesce to or even collaborate with Japanese invaders who were 'obviously worse' based on 'see what they did at Nanjing' would strike most of these peoples as diversionary whataboutism. Many of these people had during the war experiences that showed the Japanese to be worse, but they had no proof of it pre-war, and post-war, the Japanese became immediately irrelevant and the threat of renewed colonial domination became paramount once more. It's not hard to figure out.

The Indians are an interesting case. Obviously, although some PoWs and some defectors fought for the Indian National Army, the Indian Army fought loyally, bravely, successfully for the most part alongside Commonwealth forces.

But honestly, I think that loyalty had more to do with doing what made sense pragmatically, in terms of their paychecks, careers, and comrades in their units that were *not* overrun than by any great political preference for the Raj over the political ideas of Subhas Chandra Bose. Yes, and allegedly when they captured members of the INA they abused and probably murdered some. But I don't know if that's so much political, as taking an opportunity to vent post-battle frustration against an easy, unprotected target. After all, in modern India, Subhas Chandra Bose is *not* a universally reviled figure like Quisling in Norway or Petain in France. And though Indian troops killed plenty of Japanese troops, and vice versa, in WWII, the Indian judge at the Tokyo War Crimes Tribunal, Ravinder Pal, prioritized sticking it to Britain and the western countries for their hypocritical victors justice and unpunished colonialism over punishing the Japanese for their wartime atrocities.
 

marathag

Banned
Without Stalin being the main threat with War's end, more examination would be put on the Japanese, and even more on the Germans
 
One thing I've noticed alot in 20th century discussions about militarist Japan is reference to the Nanjing massacre as the catch-all, focal point of Japanese atrocities, and the Nanjing Massacre (probably better known at the time as the 'Rape of Nanking') being treated as something that anyone who the Japanese dealt with anywhere in the 1930s and 1940s would have known about and hated/distrusted the Japanese over at the time.

This is a massive projection backward of the notoriety, focus, and revival of interest the Nanjing massacre inspired since the publication of Iris Chang's book about the massacre in the 1990s, and later works it inspired. Although the rape/massacre of Nanjing was an international scandal at the time it happened among pro-Chinese circles and left-wing and anti-fascist circles, it wasn't all-consuming, took place in a time filled to the brim with nasty, international news, and didn't make a decisive impression on all people's the Japanese encountered in all places they went in their military campaigns through WWII, where millions of people either didn't have exposure to news of the massacre or ranked its importance lower than other things when making decisions related to Japanese invaders/occupiers.

Certainly, it was an awful atrocity for real, no doubt about that, and it did motivate more determined Chinese resistance for rational reasons. The Chinese Nationalist regime also exploited it for full propaganda value to gain sympathy, support, try to exert world economic and diplomatic pressures on Japan. But that was a long, slow, campaign that didn't work until a bunch of other intervening factors, like the Japanese tripartite pact with Germany, and provocations, like the Japanese occupation of French Indochina, emerged over the next 3 plus years after the massacre.

The massacre was cited for American audiences in Frank Capra's 'Why We Fight' series, the 'Battle of China' series during WWII. But after the end of the war, and the Tokyo War Crimes trials, and with the shift of focus to post-war rebuilding, and the Cold War, the massacre was basically forgotten, except for direct survivors, for about fifty years and consigned to the memory hole or memory locker for fifty years, until the 1990s and Iris Chang's book. The Chinese Nationalist regime, holding out against Communist conquest and economically dependent on Japan in the Cold War, didn't dwell on it alot. The Chinese Communists, who weren't in the Nanjing area resisting in force and who really were focused on getting Japanese trade and aid in the 1970s and 1980s and early 1990s didn't dwell on it alot.

It was remembered and rediscovered when well-written works were published on it internationally and when it was politically convenient for the message to be amplified. It's somewhat like how the Holocaust wasn't widely known, named, or discussed in full gruesome detail in terms of all its particular victims and perpetrators until a couple decades after WWII. It wasn't exactly unknown, but the number of people who studied, obsessed, wrote, and cared about it was limited to smallish circle immediately after the war, until an explosion in scholarship and commemoration in the 1970s.

Anyway, back from the Holocaust tangent.

What does this observation mean about the Nanjing massacre and scenarios involving militarist Japan?

Basically, Japanese atrocities in Nanjing were going to be far more relevant to the Chinese, and ethnic Chinese living in Southeast Asia, than any other local ethnic group in the areas Japan invaded or nearly invaded.

For ethnic Vietnamese, Burmese, Indians, Malays, Javans, Thai, it was something nasty that happened to other people they didn't know well. At the outset of the war, much closer to top of mind for these groups were last nasty things that the French, British, or Dutch did to them. The French, British, and Dutch authorities certainly weren't worth fighting for to many of these folks, except inasmuch as they were fighting for a paycheck, career and their buddies in the unit. It took their own personal experience of getting bombed by the Japanese or getting abused face-to-face by the Japanese, not vicarious experience of people in far away China, for the amounts of anti-Japanese sentiment that did emerge to develop.

British, French, or Dutch marveling at how these colonial subjects could acquiesce to or even collaborate with Japanese invaders who were 'obviously worse' based on 'see what they did at Nanjing' would strike most of these peoples as diversionary whataboutism. Many of these people had during the war experiences that showed the Japanese to be worse, but they had no proof of it pre-war, and post-war, the Japanese became immediately irrelevant and the threat of renewed colonial domination became paramount once more. It's not hard to figure out.

The Indians are an interesting case. Obviously, although some PoWs and some defectors fought for the Indian National Army, the Indian Army fought loyally, bravely, successfully for the most part alongside Commonwealth forces.

But honestly, I think that loyalty had more to do with doing what made sense pragmatically, in terms of their paychecks, careers, and comrades in their units that were *not* overrun than by any great political preference for the Raj over the political ideas of Subhas Chandra Bose. Yes, and allegedly when they captured members of the INA they abused and probably murdered some. But I don't know if that's so much political, as taking an opportunity to vent post-battle frustration against an easy, unprotected target. After all, in modern India, Subhas Chandra Bose is *not* a universally reviled figure like Quisling in Norway or Petain in France. And though Indian troops killed plenty of Japanese troops, and vice versa, in WWII, the Indian judge at the Tokyo War Crimes Tribunal, Ravinder Pal, prioritized sticking it to Britain and the western countries for their hypocritical victors justice and unpunished colonialism over punishing the Japanese for their wartime atrocities.

Ravinder Pal at least to me doesn't seem to have been all that interested in punishing Japanese war crimes. His main interest was as you say sticking it to the Brits and their hypocrisy. Which is in of itself kind of a pretty bad form of hypocrisy. His entire argument seems to be "If we can't punish or imprison every single murderer then no murderer should be punished or imprisoned." I mean the fact that he got lionized by the worst sort of Japanese post war militarist revisionists doesn't say much for him.
 
Kick
How is Nanking different than the actions of the Red Army actions in Germany in 1945. LeMay said that if they lost they would probably be tried as war criminals. Yes it was a tragedy and a terrible injustice but there is a lot of victor's justice here.
 
How is Nanking different than the actions of the Red Army actions in Germany in 1945. LeMay said that if they lost they would probably be tried as war criminals. Yes it was a tragedy and a terrible injustice but there is a lot of victor's justice here.

The MacNamara quote always gets really badly misunderstood. He wasn't saying they were morally as bad as the other side. He was just saying the blatantly obvious. Namely that if the Allies had lost they would have tried and executed a bunch of WALLIED military and political leaders.

He was admitting moral equivalence. He was just pointing out the blindingly obvious.

And in terms of war crimes trials to my knowledge none of the Germans or Japanese convicted were ever tried for anything American or WALLIED forces had done at least in terms of tactics. Hence Goering never being tried for say bombing london or the German Admirals being tried for unrestricted submarine warfare.
 

raharris1973

Gone Fishin'
The MacNamara quote always gets really badly misunderstood. He wasn't saying they were morally as bad as the other side. He was just saying the blatantly obvious. Namely that if the Allies had lost they would have tried and executed a bunch of WALLIED military and political leaders.

He was admitting moral equivalence. He was just pointing out the blindingly obvious.

And in terms of war crimes trials to my knowledge none of the Germans or Japanese convicted were ever tried for anything American or WALLIED forces had done at least in terms of tactics. Hence Goering never being tried for say bombing london or the German Admirals being tried for unrestricted submarine warfare.

Skorzeny avoided the noose for using US uniforms as a ruse of war because he was able to call on SOE operatives who had done the same with German uniforms as witnesses for the defense.
 
Skorzeny avoided the noose for using US uniforms as a ruse of war because he was able to call on SOE operatives who had done the same with German uniforms as witnesses for the defense.
Strictly speaking I think even today the laws of war do allow one nations troops to say wear the uniforms of another nation while covertly in said nations territory. It's just that before any hostile action is taking their supposed to remove those uniforms.

It's a pretty old custom. Bog standard tactic in the Age of Sail was to say have a attacking warship fly the flag of a neutral or enemy nation in order to get closer to an enemy ship. Perfectly legal and gentlemanly. It was just required that the enemy flag be taken down and the real national flag displayed before the guns could be fired.
 

nbcman

Donor
How is Nanking different than the actions of the Red Army actions in Germany in 1945. LeMay said that if they lost they would probably be tried as war criminals. Yes it was a tragedy and a terrible injustice but there is a lot of victor's justice here.
Tell me what Soviet newspapers were printing a competition between officers on who would be the first to kill 100 Germans? Or cannabilism after the fall of Berlin? The Rape of Nanking was a whole different level of ‘tragedy and injustice’.
 

McPherson

Banned
One thing I've noticed a lot in 20th century discussions about militarist Japan is reference to the Nanjing massacre as the catch-all, focal point of Japanese atrocities, and the Nanjing Massacre (probably better known at the time as the 'Rape of Nanking') being treated as something that anyone who the Japanese dealt with anywhere in the 1930s and 1940s would have known about and hated/distrusted the Japanese over at the time.

It was known.
 

CalBear

Moderator
Donor
Monthly Donor
How is Nanking different than the actions of the Red Army actions in Germany in 1945. LeMay said that if they lost they would probably be tried as war criminals. Yes it was a tragedy and a terrible injustice but there is a lot of victor's justice here.
Ah, War crimes whataboutism.

One of my least favorite policy violation.

Kicked for a week.
 
Ravinder Pal at least to me doesn't seem to have been all that interested in punishing Japanese war crimes. His main interest was as you say sticking it to the Brits and their hypocrisy. Which is in of itself kind of a pretty bad form of hypocrisy. His entire argument seems to be "If we can't punish or imprison every single murderer then no murderer should be punished or imprisoned." I mean the fact that he got lionized by the worst sort of Japanese post war militarist revisionists doesn't say much for him.
The problem is that that basically means blaming the man for what he said about him, in another country, more than 30 years later, a lot of people who (probably) never got to know, or have a relationship, and about which He couldn't say anything because he was conveniently dead.

He doesn't look too different from all those people who say that "X person should be rejected because the Nazis like him", even if it is obvious that the Nazis actually like X because they did not understand what it was about.

I am not saying that it is not possible that Ravinder Pal really wanted to give the British the middle finger. My objection is to the part of using, as evidence against him, not anything he does, but what a lot of people said that has no relationship with him.

About Skorzeny:

As far as I know, he escaped conviction over the uniforms issue because Allied military commanders admitted that they had done the same. So if they condemned Skorzeny for something the Allies themselves had admitted to doing as well, they would have come off as lying and vindictive hypocrites. Which is pretty ugly when you're supposed to be trying to establish legal doctrine on "what is a war crime" and "how to wage a just war."
 
It bothers me a little too, in the sense that a whole lot of people were killed (or died) because of the Japanese yet they don't really get mentioned unless they died at Nanking. I recall one reviewer of Chang's book commenting that Nanking was like "China's Holocaust," except this 'holocaust' "only" accounted for 200-300k out of up to 20 million plus Chinese deaths in World War II, and up to 30 million deaths in the Pacific Theater as a whole. For example, even only one day into the occupation of Nanking the Japanese ambassador in Berlin boasted that his country had already killed over 500,000 Chinese people.

I think a lot of this has to do with the fact that people just don't know that much about Japanese war crimes during World War II, and so they bring up Nanking because that's the one with the notoriety. Sort of like how people only bring up Unit 731 while forgetting there were also 9 other major "death factories" just like it and many of those had additional sub-departments as well.

NdEDs69.png

[Source: Sheldon Harris, Japanese Biomedical Experimentation During the World War II era]

An analogous situation would be people talking about the Nazis and only ever bringing up Auschwitz and the destruction of Warsaw. Yes, those things were horrible and should be remembered, but there was also so much more going on that deserves to be remembered too. Thinking of the sufferings experienced by victims of the Pacific War only in terms of the Nanking Massacre and Unit 731, in my opinion, diminishes the scale of the tragedy and cheapens the subject in our collective memory.
 
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And in terms of war crimes trials to my knowledge none of the Germans or Japanese convicted were ever tried for anything American or WALLIED forces had done at least in terms of tactics. Hence Goering never being tried for say bombing london or the German Admirals being tried for unrestricted submarine warfare.
The Nuremberg Trial went after Doenitz for some of his orders re: submarine warfare, but his defense attorney got a letter from Chester Nimitz basically saying "Yup, the US did that too." Doenitz served time, but didn't swing.

So, even if they tried it, evidence showing Allied behavior wouldn't be ignored if entered in good faith by the defense.
 
An analogous situation would be people talking about the Nazis and only ever bringing up Auschwitz and the destruction of Warsaw. Yes, those things were horrible and should be remembered, but there was also so much more going on that deserves to be remembered too. Thinking of the sufferings experienced by victims of the Pacific War only in terms of the Nanking Massacre and Unit 731, in my opinion, diminishes the scale of the tragedy and cheapens it in our collective memory.
True. Unfortunately the general public is taught and only remembers a few events from major conflicts and eras and often what is known is false or twisted (though if you ask them about nonsense like celebrity drama and entertainment they turn into Einstein). The American public is extremely historically illiterate among other things. The book Why? by Peter Hayes goes into detail at debunking the various myths and false narratives concerning the Holocaust and you can do the same for so many other historical events and eras.
 
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Ah, War crimes whataboutism.

One of my least favorite policy violation.

Kicked for a week.
So in this discussion about the perception and visibility of war crimes i cannot talk about if there isn't something true about victors justice? Not about the perception in the 50's when there was more attention for bombardments of Warsaw, Rotterdam and the English cities in historiografy than for the bombardments of Dresden, Hamburg and Tokyo. I can't mention the discussion about the necessity of the Atomic bomb that started in earnest in the 60's? The internment of Japanese citizens and indeed also the 'liberation' of Eastern Europe? When does this become whataboutism? Do you have an external reason to assume Bob in Pittsburgh was trolling here or that he's seriously trying to whitewash what the Japanese did in Nanjing?
I honestly think Victors Justice and might makes right, is unfortunately an element in answering the question:"Why is there now attention for the Nanjing massacre and not in the past?" China was de forma a victor in WW II, but not in practice. Is it a coincidence that the attention for the massacre appears at the same time of the growing political influence of China and the relative decline of Japan or the rise in stories about the 'liberation' of Eastern Europe and the fall of the Soviet Union*? I don't think so.

*Here there's also an explanation in the opening of Soviet archives, but i don't think it's enough.
 
One reason for Japan's war crimes being swept under the rug is because of the Cold War and how China and half of Korea went communist. If China didn't go communist and remained somewhat friendly to the US on the anti-communist side then these things might not have faded or been swept under the rug.
 
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