Polish Eagle Over Moscow: Poland Joins Operation Barbarossa ATL

hasdrubal barca

Part 5: Napoleon's Ghost

The alliance with Poland was tearing Hitler part inside. He viewed the Slavs as "subhuman" yet admired the Poles. The only relief he found was knowing that Napoleon had done the same. Hitler admired that man more then anyone and wished more then anything to emulate him. The date he chose to launch his Russian adventure was the same day Napoleon began his campaign centuries earlier.

In late May, with Napoleon on his mind, Hitler welcomed General von Bock into the Chancellery. Von Bock showed the Fuhrer his modified version of Operation Barbarossa, based upon Napoleon. Von Bock did not view the planned encirclement operations against Minsk and Smolensk as essential, "The envelopment of Minsk is not decisive. Besides, I am sure that the enemy expects us to attack Minsk, the next natural objective, and will concentrate defense forces there" The general's goal was for a quick advance on Moscow, while avoiding a bulk of the heaviest Soviet defenses. The major enemy positions at Minsk and Smolensk would be left to the infantry and Polish troops to mop up.

His plan called for the German Panzers to advance both north and south of Minsk. The northern wing would advance on Vitebsk, while the southern wing would follow Napoleon's route just north of the Pripyat Marshes. If everything went according to plan the Germans would drive straight on Moscow and the Soviet government would collapse in its wake.

Hitler was overjoyed at von Bock's proposal and immediately ordered the modifications implemented.
 

ObssesedNuker

hasdrubal barca said:
His plan called for the German Panzers to advance both north and south of Minsk. The northern wing would advance on Vitebsk, while the southern wing would follow Napoleon's route just north of the Pripyat Marshes. If everything went according to plan the Germans would drive straight on Moscow and the Soviet government would collapse in its wake.
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Hmm... that northern wing is going to have to go straight through some big swamps while that southern wing will have just a ~10 mile wide segment between the fortified region west of Minsk and the edge of the Pripyat marshes to advance through...

EDIT: Actually, I'm not sure if that northern thrust is possible at all without violating the neutrality of Lithuania.

EDIT2: Okay, actually it is. Huh, I never realized that Vilnius was Polish in 1939.
 

hasdrubal barca

ObssesedNuker said:
Hmm... that northern wing is going to have to go straight through some big swamps while that southern wing will have just a ~10 mile wide segment between the fortified region west of Minsk and the edge of the Pripyat marshes to advance through...

EDIT: Actually, I'm not sure if that northern thrust is possible at all without violating the neutrality of Lithuania.

EDIT2: Okay, actually it is. Huh, I never realized that Vilnius was Polish in 1939.
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The wing attacks will still partially hit the Soviet fortifications, this plan just tries to minimize losses by having as much as possible go around.

The German forces north of Minsk in OTL pushed through the same area rapidly, enveloping Minsk by the 27th. If the German forces take the same route they should be fine. Then instead of cutting south behind Minsk, they will just driving directly on the Berezina as Guderian and Bock wanted.

Also wanted to thank you again for those maps there much better then everything i've been looking at :D
 
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ObssesedNuker

hasdrubal barca said:
The wing attacks will still partially hit the Soviet fortifications, this plan just tries to minimize losses by having as much as possible go around.
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Makes since, the problem is that the Soviets are not going to ignore these gaps. Unlike IOTL, there will be serious formations deployed in the forests and marshes on these axis.

The German forces north of Minsk in OTL pushed through the same area rapidly, enveloping Minsk by the 27th. If the German forces take the same route they should be fine. Then instead of cutting south behind Minsk, they will just driving directly on the Berezina as Guderian and Bock wanted.
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The problem is that OTL there were literally zero Red Army formations occupying that terrain* and ready to fight. ITTL, we're probably talking about a half-dozen rifle divisions, minimum.

*And I mean zero. Like the largest force I could find between the Minsk fortified region and that fortified region on the D'vina IOTL June 22nd 1941 is a single NKVD security regiment (the 83rd). 1,400 men is obviously not enough to even remotely begin to man a front of 40 miles.
Also wanted to thank you again for those maps there much better then everything i've been looking at
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Hey, no problem.
 
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Shaby

Mackus said:
You might not know this, but Germans were trying to align Poland. They gave only after n-th attemp, around mid-1939, and turned to Soviets. Apparently ITTL he didn't change his policy, because it worked.
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Why it didn't work OTL? It is not an event that depends on a flip of a coin. You have to take into account the Polish attitude and the German demands.

Mackus said:
You know, IOTL this policy resulted in them getting crushed by the aforementioned powers. Better to be client state of either side, than to be crushed by both. Its not impossible, that someone in Warsaw could figure this out without benefit of hindsight.
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Well, they knew they would get crushed if any one of the neighbors attacked them. What they counted on was that no one would risk the war to attack Poland. They played the game of detterence, but Hitler was not to be dettered.
 

hasdrubal barca

Part 6: Who Needs Tanks We Have Trains!

Rydz-Śmigły spent June,1939 in the company of Italian General Ugo Cavallero and his two favorite Polish commanders Władysław Bortnowski and Juliusz Rómmel. Together they toured the front making sure the utmost effort was put into preparing for the attack. Rydz-Śmigły put particular emphasis on the importance of rail lines. In cooperation with his German and Italian colleagues, Rydz-Śmigły put together special rail conversion teams. These men, when the advance began, would be charged with converting the wider Soviet rail lines and make them usable for the Axis advance. When the tracks were converted Poland could deploy its powerful armoured train force to help the advance. These armoured trains were not only good for supplying the army, but were also excellent tank killers.

The planned invasion of Ukraine also was on Rydz-Śmigły's mind. Polish and Italian forces would be forced to attack directly into the teeth of the Soviet defences. It would be a hard struggle and the enemy would only be overcome with the utmost effort. Rydz-Śmigły still had faith in the abilities of his brave men and his dream of Intermarium had never been stronger.

Meanwhile in the Far East, Japanese forces were on the move capturing Vladivostok and launching an amphibious assault on Petropavlowsk. Zhukov arrived on June 5th and began a counter offensive against the Japanese in Inner Mongolia, driving the Japanese back over the next few weeks. The only thing that prevented a total Japanese collapse was constant air support.
 
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kclcmdr

The Polish Cavalry Brigades should help the German Panzer Corps in protecting their rear supply units going back and forth to their supply depots in East Prussia and wherever they are gonna be based in Poland.....
 

hasdrubal barca

pattersonautobody said:
That's pretty cool about the trains, but how would they convert rails fast enough to make them useful?
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Here's a qoutes from David Stahel's book about the topic:

"The Soviet railway gauge was, however wider then the rest of Europe, preventing the German trains from simply rolling onto Soviet network. The Germans knew this and prepared special-rail conversion teams which in theory only had to uproot the rail spikes, move the rails closer together and then hammer down the spikes again."

So it seems simple enough, but labor intensive.
 

Shaby

hasdrubal barca said:
Here's a qoutes from David Stahel's book about the topic:

"The Soviet railway gauge was, however wider then the rest of Europe, preventing the German trains from simply rolling onto Soviet network. The Germans knew this and prepared special-rail conversion teams which in theory only had to uproot the rail spikes, move the rails closer together and then hammer down the spikes again."

So it seems simple enough, but labor intensive.
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You notice that 'in theory' part? That theory got broken up when reality set in. And the reality was that the Soviets simply took rails and through relatively simple expedient of exposing them to high temperature i.e. burned using the sleepers from the same track... End result: horribly bent rails the repair crews cannot use and are forced to bring new sleepers and new rails...
 

Deckhand

hasdrubal barca said:
They have 20 divisions manning the West Wall at all times. The 300k im referring to are the Replacement Army for the Eastern Front, they will replace casualties in the campaign.
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So 20 vs the French OTL 94 ? 5 to 1 still, and the French will have superiority in all arms, especially air superiority.
 

hasdrubal barca

Shaby said:
You notice that 'in theory' part? That theory got broken up when reality set in. And the reality was that the Soviets simply took rails and through relatively simple expedient of exposing them to high temperature i.e. burned using the sleepers from the same track... End result: horribly bent rails the repair crews cannot use and are forced to bring new sleepers and new rails...
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I'm sure on many occasions the Soviets did bust up their own rail lines. Polish support will help getting the lines back together faster then OTL.

The Germans actually used their armoured trains to success they just didn't have as many as Poles until later in the war.
"In central Europe Railways remained the logistic arteries of the German war economy and the Wehrmacht's logistical ability. On the Eastern Front both sides employed armoured trains, but the Germans employed them to a greater extent; their main functions was to protect rail networks from partisan attack and to escort particularly valuable equipment being transport. By 1943 the Germans had 80 armoured trains operating in East and Central Europe."
The Military History of WWII Barrie Pitt
 

Shaby

Well, yes I am sure the armored trains would be useful to protect railways from partisans. However, immediate needs, such as logistics will be delayed and gross transport raum will not take long to brake down if the rails are not repaired smoothly and in time. And the density of the Soviet rail system is relatively low. The Germans will have large problems if they do not advance fast enough to make it impossible for the Soviets to effect large scale damage on their railway system.

Given the limited number of manpower it is far from certain the Germans will be able to overtake the Soviets and manage to stop them in the destruction.
 

hasdrubal barca

Shaby said:
Well, yes I am sure the armored trains would be useful to protect railways from partisans. However, immediate needs, such as logistics will be delayed and gross transport raum will not take long to brake down if the rails are not repaired smoothly and in time. And the density of the Soviet rail system is relatively low. The Germans will have large problems if they do not advance fast enough to make it impossible for the Soviets to effect large scale damage on their railway system.

Given the limited number of manpower it is far from certain the Germans will be able to overtake the Soviets and manage to stop them in the destruction.
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So i'm sure it will vary by area. Where the German Panzers are advancing maybe they capture them intact. Where the slower infantry are moving they probably don't. Overall any Polish expertise and support can't hurt the Germans in getting them back on line faster. Also more Polish trains in service means more supplies going to the front, not necessarily into Soviet Union itself at first, but dropping off at the border.
 
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