Possible Byzantium with a Muslim Emperor?

As the title says, i want to know if there was any chance for a Muslim to become the Emperor of Rome.

I dont mean someone like the Ottomans taking the title of Byzantine/Roman Emperors, i mean a Muslim guy manages to outwit the Byzantine powercenters and insert himself onto Emperorship.

It would be extremely cool to see somebody try to make the Orthodox and Muslims work together against other Muslims and Catholics..

I know Greeks were not willing to convert to Catholicism, less Islam (Which the Ottomans only very partially accomplished after centuries of low taxes and relative stability), and i am not asking for a Muslim Byzantium.

All i am asking for a possible scenario (It might be a bit far-fetched but i would like to hear all ideas) where a Muslim is the Byzantine Emperor, preferably before Manzikert altough that is not a requisite. Bonus points if he can amalgamate a Dynasty.
 
I believe the early views of Islam by the Byzantines was that it was lesss a new religion and more of a heresy. That gives a window of opportunity - if you were able to get someone to convert to Islam, but present it as a form of Christianity after becoming Emperor it could well get it's foot in the door. The two faiths were, after all, able to influence one another even in OTL (Iconoclasm can be read as an attempt to at least answer one of the major charges which Muslims threw against Christians during the era). I don't see it becoming the dominant faith in the Empire by any means - but if said Emperor secures himself in power, you might see an adoption by the Orthodox of some Islamic ideas - or, conversely, a Greek form of Islam which maintains many Orthodox notions (the divinity of Christ, for instance).

It would be interesting to say the least. Not ASB, by any means, but also unlikely enough that our hypothetical Emperor is going to have to have the political acume of an Augustus and still be rolling nat 20s for much of his reign.
 
That’s not going to happen without a Muslim army backing him up.
It's possible if he can get enough nobles/interest groups behind him with promises, ie maybe he is a very good general and the Empire really needs one at the moment. So he might be put into some sort of power where he can build up from (Kinda like Romanos Diogenes, but he was directly made Emperor).
 
That emperor dies. The position of emperor was deeply linked with the Orthodox faith. The moment there is even the faintest whisper of talk about a muslim ascending to the throne, the army revolts, the nobles revolt and the local population revolts. The mob would storm the location where this person is and kill him.
 
I don't know if it needs a Muslim army backing him up, per se, but...

The Byzantines don't seem to have considered religion hugely important in their foreign policies, as far as that they often fought other Orthodox (not just Catholic) powers and not that infrequently were on good terms with one Muslim power against another.

But that doesn't change that internally, you'd have to do a lot to crack the idea that the Vice-Gerent of God, the Equal of the Apostles, being Christian is kind of a big deal. Short of taking Islam as just another Christian heresy, I'm not sure its going to fly - no matter how good a general they are and what promises they make. It's closer to asking for a Muslim Pope than it is a Muslim president of a secular state.
 
Short of taking Islam as just another Christian heresy,
That is an interesting POD idea. It's not that far fetched, after all, Islam still considers Jesus as a Prophet of the one True God, so somebody with enough influence could spin it as some heresy that says Mohammed was just reitirating Jesus's ideas, or it can even be claimed as a syncretization of Christianity and Arab/Turkish values.
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I remember a timeline where Timurids after Timur conquer China and spin a narrative that Mohammed was actually a Chinese migrant to Arabia and was basically Confucius+. Something similar can happen here, after all, religious propaganda can be really effective.
 
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dcharles

Banned
Surely. No credit goes to me for bringing that possibility up though.

I wonder, if in this ATL, Islam is more along the lines of Buddhism, in the sense that all Buddhists don't necessarily believe in the divinity of Buddha. Maybe here, there's more of a spectrum of opinion about Muhammad, where he's venerated by some people who identify as Christian, and also by people who are more like OTL Muslims, who venerate Muhammad before other Judeo-Christian figures.
 
This is a very, very difficult ask imho. There are two major issues at hand.

First, as the other posters have mentioned, is how much religion was intertwined with how the Romans saw themselves. We must remember that our view of religion, as something distinct from culture, is a modern (post wars of religion) concept. To be Roman is to be orthodox, and to not be orthodox is not to be Roman. And only a Roman can take the imperium.
The second is how much Islam, the Caliphate or the Ummah as a whole defined itself in opposition to the Roman Empire. This is inevitable given its early history.

It's important to consider all this because the person also has to be the vice-regent of Christ on Earth. The emperor cannot be a heretic, so whatever he believes in is orthodoxy
 

dcharles

Banned
This would mean the abandoning of the Qur'an, which in turn means this would just be Orthodox Christianity with turbans.

Well, it would mean that they've got a different Koran, at least. Maybe the POD is that one of the Koranic scribes goes his own way, or maybe it's just edited down. Either way, it's not fatal to the scenario. There are passages in the Bible that proscribe alterations, but people have different versions nonetheless. This would hardly be the first time coreligionists had differing views on the merits of different versions of a text.
 
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but if said Emperor secures himself in power, you might see an adoption by the Orthodox of some Islamic ideas - or, conversely, a Greek form of Islam which maintains many Orthodox notions (the divinity of Christ, for instance).
Hellenised Islam wouldn’t maintain the divinity of Christ- that’s such a big change that you simply can’t call it Islam. Allah is without associates or equals- unless you take the mention in the Quran of Mary being impregnated by when spirit was blown into her through Gabriel, and equate that spirit with the the spirit of Allah that was breathed into Adam in the Quran to get an Islam where the Holy Spirit is a much more important concept from the beginning.

An interesting point to mention here is the view of Nurbakshi sufis which formed part of imperial Mughal ideology- the divine light which took shape in a human mother without a fathers loins, assumes holy bodily wrappings in many manifestations including Jesus, Alanquas son and in the present day the emperor Akbar. Safavid imperial ideology under Shah Ismail too held that he was the present embodiment of Jesus, Ali, the twelve imams etc

For the Nurbakshis it wasn’t a question of reincarnation, but one of projection, where a complete soul pours into a perfect being and he becomes the locus of its manifestation- this could happen between two people both alive at the same time but nurbaksh used it to explain how he became Jesus.

“in Irbil in the year 827 [1423–1424], that one day people gathered together to wait for Jesus to descend from the sky. He saw that he descended in the form of light rather than body, and flowed toward me [i.e., Nurbakhsh] and held me. The same night I saw that I was present in the sky and in a human body on earth in the same instant.”

These examples are from a radically different Islamic culture than existed in its early days, after centuries of evolution and exposure to Buddhist, tengrist ideas- but the point I’m making is that the claim that Jesus was a being of light who united with ahuman body seem pretty apollinarian, and could be taken as a revival of that stance- if the early Muslims decide it’s acceptable to them in the way it became obvious to Muslims of the 15th century. Alternatively the whole- they thought they killed Jesus because that’s how it was made to appear to them could be a neo-docetism thing of and he was never really flesh anyway, just divine light made to look like flesh.


Hellenised Islam might take the New Testament to have real authoritative worth on how to live your life well, in all the sections where it isn’t contradicted by the Quran or Hadith.

After all the most widely accepted Islamic position on the New Testament otl is that

“The Injil spoken of by the Qur'an is not the New Testament. It is not the four Gospels now received as canonical. It is the single Gospel which, Islam teaches, was revealed to Jesus, and which he taught. Fragments of it survive in the received canonical Gospels and in some others, of which traces survive (e.g., the Gospel of Childhood or the Nativity, the Gospel of St. Barnabas, etc.)”

For hellenised Islam, it just becomes obvious that even if the injil of Jesus was misinterpreted, large portions of the New Testament which don’t contradict the Quran or Hadith are a source of law and theology, at least equal to Hadith. This includes much of the picture of the personality of Jesus, who chased the moneylenders from the temple or who taught the sermon on the mount. From that, Jesus for hellenised Muslims can take on the position of a culture hero like Ali was otl- not divine, but with people having such a strong emotional connection to him that they self flagellate in his memory.
 
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As the title says, i want to know if there was any chance for a Muslim to become the Emperor of Rome.
I don’t even think this is necessarily that hard. Just have one of the sieges succeed, and Constantinople could easily be set up as an opposing power base the far away Caliph. From there is a pretty easy jump to “Emperor of the Romans” as the title of this Muslim warlord.
 
I don’t even think this is necessarily that hard. Just have one of the sieges succeed, and Constantinople could easily be set up as an opposing power base the far away Caliph. From there is a pretty easy jump to “Emperor of the Romans” as the title of this Muslim warlord.
Partly this or just an auxiliar title of caliph (the ummayds were also the ruler of Syria as their sub title)

Everyone here, Islamic finder is just a Google away
 
I think he wants it as their primary title, as he specifically rules out the kaiser of Rum title of the Ottomans.
Thing is CALIPH Is already the max title, that's the heir of Adam on Earth, literally the Prime Minister of Allah on Earth. Any other title is just luxury(except king/malik as Allah is the only king)
 
What i was originally asking was for a possible Muslim Emperor without a conquests, but all the ideas here are super interesting. Thats the great part about "What If"s.
 
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