Regarding a question about Operation Sea Lion. . .

It has to do with the loss of men and material if the invasion was ever launched. How many divisions would have been gutted, and how much artillery, tanks and other war material destroyed or captured, assuming the invasion failed?
 
I'd think the Germans would lose pretty much everything they put on the shore. I can't see them doing a Dunkirk.
 
No matter what the Germans send they lose %95 of men and all material sent. IF they send 2 airborne and 3 or 4 infantry and mechanised divisions they lose all of it. The German Navy will lose any ship trying to defend the beachheads. The German Air Force had very few bombs able to do deck armour penetration. So destroyers and cruisers have trouble but the Battleships and Battlecruisers can and will wipe out the beachhead naval support. The RAF would happily throw every aircraft left to wrest air superiority over the beaches and ports during the Naval push. Expect a Stalingrad style pocket with what remains of the Luftwaffe transport group to die.
 

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As far as I can tell the first wave would be the following. I assume when the landing fails (which, barring super PoDs, it will) the rest of the landing will be called off. I doubt any of the second or third wave would be launched.

Heeresgruppe A First Wave (von Rundstedt)

16.Armee — (Busch)
XIII.Armee-Korps — (von Vietinghoff Scheel).
17.Infanterie-Division, 35.Infanterie-Division and Luftwaffe II./Flak-Regiment 14
VII.Armee-Korps — (von Schobert)
1.Gebirgs-Division, 7.Infanterie-Division and Luftwaffe I./Flak-Regiment 26

9.Armee — (Strauss)
XXXVIII.Armee-Korps — (von Manstein)
26.Infanterie-Division and 34.Infanterie-Division VIII.Armee-Korps — (Heitz)
6.Gebirgs-Division, 8.Infanterie-Division and 28.Infanterie-Division

Heeresgruppe C (von Leeb)

6.Armee — (von Reichenau)
II.Armee-Korps — (von Brockdorff-Ahlefeldt) 6.Infanterie-Division and 256.Infanterie-Division

Airborne Formations (Student)
7.Flieger-Division and 22.Infanterie-Division

Bau-Lehr-Regiment z.b.V. 800 Brandenburg

A point to note is the loss of the airborne, mountain and Brandenburg troops.

Edit: the list was amended from the wiki article.
 
It has to do with the loss of men and material if the invasion was ever launched. How many divisions would have been gutted, and how much artillery, tanks and other war material destroyed or captured, assuming the invasion failed?

The German war economy, which was already a mess will probably not survived the loss of all these RIVER barges that stupid German Ubermensch put on one of the worst sea in the world, the Canal La Manche. They will also loose all their navy and much of their civilian fleet including fishing boats who were planned to be mobilised as far as Gdynia where ex polish fishing boats were sent to Northern Germany to be equipped with AA weapons.

The Luftwaffe will probably loose all their transports aircrafts.
 
I have to say the German Navy's planning for Sealion was manifestly and hopelessly flawed. The river barges had such a low freeboard that any storm would sink half the barges. A destroyer at 30 knots would swamp any vessel it went past.
 
I'd think the Germans would lose pretty much everything they put on the shore. I can't see them doing a Dunkirk.

I often hear the term 'reverse' Dunkirk when describing potential German efforts in putting an invasion force ashore (along a coastline with no major ports!)
 
Even taking horribly pro-German estimates (low RN hit rate, only considering main guns on DDs and nothing else) from our resident Sealionophile, the Germans look likely to loose 10% of the first wave sunk/disabled at sea:
Assuming a hit rate expected for long ranged engagements in a short range melee; only considering a relatively small fraction of available British forces (DDs only, ignoring sloops, corvettes, armed trawlers and similar also available); assuming negligible non-combat losses and neglecting smaller caliber weapons... all VERY optimistic for the Germans. That's still something like 5-10% (140-280 out of a nominal 2400 barges plus other vessels?) of all German sealift available for Seelowe destroyed or heavily damaged on a single night.

Tell me how long you think the Germans can sustain such losses before their ability to supply and reinforce the beachhead(s) fails?

I suspect it also translates into 10-20% of the vessels involved in the initial landing and day one reinforcements (given a minimum 24hr round trip time on the shortest routes, putting every vessel out for the landing means no reinforcements for a day after the landing)... Then add vessels engaged with smaller caliber weapons (a good burst of two-pounder should pretty thoroughly wreck a barge; a burst of Vickers 0.5in is marginal on the sinking front but will heavily damage engines, control systems and similar and cause heavy casualties amoungst passengers and crews; a burst of .303 is unlikely to sink or seriously damage a barge but will kill passengers and crew) and a whole disruption side of things (Destroyers ploughing through your formation doesn't do much good for your navigation, likewise deploying smokescreens), I'd suggest total losses are more like 20-30% of the first wave, with probably another 10-20% either forces to turn back or scattered haphazardly along the British coast...
I think with more realistic inputs we can probably double and maybe even triple those numbers (I'd be hesitant about going beyond triple just because the chaotic nature of a night action and the large number of targets...). Add in vessels that run for home and vessels that end up scattered to all points of the compass and maybe half the first wave makes it ashore in some very loose approximation to order.

That's before the Germans actually start fighting ashore...

edit: Of cause, given the nature of night actions, odds are individual RN vs barge convoy actions will be all over the place... One convoy arriving intact, the one behind it wiped out, the one 10NM up-channel scattered but taking only moderate losses, the one 10NM down-channel running for home without actually being engaged etc.
 
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At the risk of sounding glib the only Germans who don't drown in the channel, are killed on the beaches/inland or in POW camps within a week are likely to be the one's whose barge capsized due to the sea conditions close enough to their embarkation ports to be rescued.

That said since in some instances they were going to use the same transports for the 2nd wave as was used for the 1st wave, at least those chaps in the 2nd wave will likely be OK sitting waiting for the 1st wave's goals to be achieved. (seizing working ports being a big one IIRC)


The airborne troops will do better in that some will be shot down but I'd say they will have a higher chance of making it out of their planes over England than the poor sods bobbing around in the channel will have getting ashore.
 
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Even taking horribly pro-German estimates (low RN hit rate, only considering main guns on DDs and nothing else) from our resident Sealionophile, the Germans look likely to loose 10% of the first wave sunk/disabled at sea:

I think with more realistic inputs we can probably double and maybe even triple those numbers (I'd be hesitant about going beyond triple just because the chaotic nature of a night action and the large number of targets...). Add in vessels that run for home and vessels that end up scattered to all points of the compass and maybe half the first wave makes it ashore in some very loose approximation to order.

That's before the Germans actually start fighting ashore...

edit: Of cause, given the nature of night actions, odds are individual RN vs barge convoy actions will be all over the place... One convoy arriving intact, the one behind it wiped out, the one 10NM up-channel scattered but taking only moderate losses, the one 10NM down-channel running for home without actually being engaged etc.

Of course that completely ignores the fact that before you involve a single HMS Hat band name the British - having something of a pool of nautical types - had the ability in Sept 1940 to literally flood the Channel with hundreds of armed civilian vessels - from machine gun armed launches to obsolete breach loading cannon armed trawlers.

Apparently 900 such vessels were on hand

Now while none of them could be considered a warship they would have been deadly to the majority of vessels that the Germans would have been obliged to use.
 
It has to do with the loss of men and material if the invasion was ever launched. How many divisions would have been gutted, and how much artillery, tanks and other war material destroyed or captured, assuming the invasion failed?

Off the top of my head, and assuming the Germans stop at one wave... the mountain and para divisions would have been likely to have been lost to the last man, or at least only have some rear line formations left in France. The Infantry divisions could have theoretically been reformed in time for Barbarossa, as they’re heavier and would have had more significant formations left for the second wave.
 
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