Return Engagement: Settling Accounts Trilogy

Hard to predict since Turtledove refuses to give us some idea of what actual force strengths are in the USA and CSA, let alone elsewhere. However, I will take a stab at it.

The US suffers heavy losses and wins the war, but is more militant, possibly with the army no longer willing to let politicians have the final say(much like Germany in WWI).

Japan, desiring colonies and Russian territory enters as an ally of the USA, probably at some disastrous moment for the CSA and its partners. The rapid loss of the British Empire east of India, the revolt of Australia when London sends no aid, and the two-front war for Russia proves decisive.

Germany decides the war when Herr Doktor Einstein and other of the young Kaiser's most respected scientists develop a new weapon...heh heh.

The CSA is utterly destroyed and absorbed back into the US. The blacks would certainly prefer it and something like 20% of the whites were voting for it in the 1920s. Now the Confederate Party is bitter and sees no hope of restoring the CSA in the face of a '1945' style defeat and everyone is insisting they never REALLY liked that Featherstone. Faced with a multiple partition as the sole alternative, Reconstruction begins in 1946.
 
Well, about the oil. Alberta has a lot of oil... But it doesn't seem like anyone's developed it yet in this series. And even of they did develop it, we'd probobly just blow it up anyways. But I got thinking about Vichy France, and maybe sort of a Vichy Utah with the Mormons or something... Just my thoughts.
 
Yes, the Mormons would make a good miniature ally in this war, kinda like a I.S. of Croatia or a state similar to Vichy France.
 
A few more comments, having read some of the recent posts.

Firstly, HT is writing the book, so what he says goes, in which case a rerun of the Eastern Front of WW2 is most likely.

It is true that we don't have any details as to force compositions, numbers and so forth. Nor do we know much about relative industrial capacity. in this case, much of what I have to say is by inference.

Oil - I am aware that Texas-Oklahoma was not the only source of oil in the USA;just that by comparison these were by far the largest. Oilfields in Pennsylvania and Indiana are likely to be vulnerable to CSA forces. I think the main exploitation of the Canadian fields came post 1945 in OTL. Assuming earlier development, they could be vulnerable to Canadian sabotage.
I still think a lack of oil could be a problem for the US. I am also assuming that CSA offensives into Sequoyah and from Texas would serve to place their oilfileds out of US range.

Society splits. The US is not a united nation - there is a strong divide between Socialists and Democrats (or Labour and Capital). There also appears to be a strongly pacifist element in the US. Flora Blackford (Hamburger) exemplifies this, although oddly she is one of the more anti-CSA characters. It is rather akin to European pacifist parties in the 1930s- war was so terrible that its use should never be considered again. Laudable but it does pressupose goodwill on all parts. However, I do take the point that an unprovoked CSA attack may override this and bring the parties together.

So far the CSA goes, Featherstone has pretty well united the white and hispanic population behind him - opposition from that quarter seems to be muted and limited to old style southern aristocracy. I expect this to be as futile as similar oppostion to Hitler. There is, of course, the persecution of the coloured population. I doubt that this will seriously degrade the CSA's ability. Both the Nazis and USSR managed to exercise power no matter how bad the situation. Also the CSA has the reality of the revolution in 1915-16, the CSA version of the 'stab in the back' and Featherstone won't let this happen again. Where it may backfire is in the attitude of his major allies, France and the UK have large colonial empires and also large numbers of colonial troops. Mind you, the US/UK stayed allied to the USSR in WW2 and Stalin was equally as brutal.

There are some other thoughts that I have had or that reading other posts have raised.

Japan. This is an enigma. All that we know is:
it has fought an inconclusive war with the US
it is involved in China probably more successfully than in OTL
it has control of the Philipines (since before WW1)
it has effective control over the Dutch East Indies and French Indo-China

This gives it extensive control over commodities such as oil and rubber but probably not enough for export purposes. I suspect it would be happiest staying out, contenting itself with any easy pickings. Unlike OTL, it hasn't had to contend with a US-UK inspired naval treaty which appeared to hamstring it (and other minor naval powers), nor with any western opposition to its role in China. I see no reason why it should involve itself in an American & European struggle now. Much better to let the foreign devils gut themselves. There may be, from the UK point of a view, a negative effect in keeping Indian and Australasian forces where they are.

Europe - happily involved in its own little maelstrom will play little part in this war. The exception being the navies, the RN in particular. I would imagine, as with the Axis powers in OTL, some surreptitious and then flagrant breaking of the peace treaties would occur. As to the fleets, I suspect more of a cruiser-carrier fleet - again an assumption, that the defeated parties learn more than the victors and have to work around treaty limitations.
UK assistance to a Canadian revolt may also occur but this will be difficult to arrange to anywhere other than the Atlantic provinces.
Other than that, we know little about events in Europe. I'm guessing the Germans will lose.

Industrial capacity.
We have become so used to the US being an industrial superpower that there is a tendency to assume the same in the books. I suspect the gap between CSA and USA may be less at this point. OTL comparisons are not strictly valid.
Firstly, a lot of OTL industrial capacity was funded in the late 1800's from the UK. In this timeline, I suspect that most of that investment went to the CSA and S America. This would not prevent the USA developing its industry but may have slowed it. Maybe it would have had no real effect.

More to the point of thie next books, US industry was badly hit by the depression. Even as late as the late 1930's people were losing their jobs due to the slump. In OTL, New Deal and, more importantly, rearmanent first in Europe then in the US itself was a major cause in an industrial pickup. In this timeline, any Franco-British rearmanent is going to stay homegrown or be sent to allies. Similarly, the rush of orders that occured in OTL 1939 isn't going to happen, Again, conjecture, but I don't think President Smith psuhed through an increase in defence spending in his first term. His predecessors were even less disposed to spend any goverment money (or taxpayers money if you prefer). Incidentally, I liked the point raised about whether or not the Hoover Dam project went ahead.

Conversely, Featherstone did institute a major industrialisation progamme in the CSA; a CSA that probably had a larger industrial base than that of OTL. Whether this would be sustainable in a wartime economy is another matter.

Regarding industrial capacity - a lot of US industry is within striking distance of the US/CSA border - as I said the straight line distance from Louisville to Chicago is about 250 miles. If a wide envelopment is planned, then the distance is much longer but still achievable. Virginia to Pennsylvania is a bit less but less vulnerable as the border is more heavily fortified - this, I presume is where the US expects the CSA to attack as that was the main CSA attack in 1914.
The option used by OTL USSR was relocation to a secure area. I cannot see this being done by the US; partly because Stalin was able to enforce compulsory movement, an option not open to the US, partly because the relocation in the USSR was a fall back trading space for time. The US hasn't that much North-South space. Lateral routes East-West are vulnerable to the CSA, the Mormons and to Canadian insurrection.

An area not yet touched upon is military leadership. Morrell appears to be a competent officer with a grasp of modern warfare. His low rank within the US hierarchy shows how much of a necessity that is for the US army. He would appear to be a De Gaulle type figure. Dowling, the aide to Custer in WW1, resembles Gamelin (aide to Joffre) or Weygand (aide to Foch), an able administrator and strategist but probably not capable of reacting to a fast moving situation. I suspect his fellow army commanders to be similar - Certainly, US leadership in WW1 was hardly inspired and it seems to be that generation in charge, especially as most real talent would more than likely gone into business post war.

Finally the A-Bomb
The physics side was probably on a par with OTL. However, I doubt any one of the powers is in a position to make one in this timeline. It was a major scientific and engineering undertaking involving resources from more than one country - Where in OTL all this expertise was concentrated in the USA, here it would be scattered. I think we can leave nuclear flame over Richmond to the next war in the series
 
I wonder about the populations involved here.... the USA in this ATL is significantly smaller than the USSR.. OTOH, the CSA is a heck of a lot smaller than Germany too. The CSA might put together 3 army groups, but they are going to be nowhere near as large as Germany's in OTL... reduce the number of divisions involved by a factor of 10, I'd guess... I know Germany had hundreds of divisions in Russia, plus allied contingents as well. The CSA would be lucky to scrape together 100 divisions, and have no allies to put troops on the line....
 
wonder about the populations involved here.... the USA in this ATL is significantly smaller than the USSR.. OTOH, the CSA is a heck of a lot smaller than Germany too.

Didn't it say that in the first book that the US has about the same population of Germany and that the CSA and Canada had the same pop of France or was it that they has the same ratio of people. Considering that the CSA lost about the same amount of men as the US (1 million dead) in the Great War, plus the lost of Canada, and the fact that they're putting to death about a third of their population, they're really going to have a hard time getting together much of an army.

The dead rates and casaulties suffered during the Great War was a lot less than in OTL, actually more for the Americas, but less in Europe. The War only lasted three years from beginning to end. The war itself was still fierce, but factoring in that the French didn't fight for another bloody year and that war weariness and demoralization set in earler, that meant they had a lot more men saved than in OTL, rather than the 1.4 million they lost.

There could be a higher population in europe and a slightly lower one in North America. The Canadians basically battled it to the last man, I'd think they'd probably suffer what the French did after WWI. there'd still be a few terrorists and rebels fighting agains the US, but the bulk of the population would probably be content not to let their sons get slaughtered again.

Plus I'd think that the Japanese would pounce on the US, Sure they're busy in China and SE Asia, but with the inconclusive last war, they'd be more confident that they could defeat the US on the oceans, especially with most of the US ships tied up fighting the British in the Atlantic. I'd see the Japanese taking Hawaii and all the US pacific positions, and then raiding the west coast. The US would be just too much of a juicy target to not join in on attacking it. It's battling for its life agianst the CSA, it's shipping is being shot down by the British, the Canadians and Mormons rebelling, the country basically torn in half. It seems like the best bet.

Would Mexico join the CSA in battling the US. The CSA seems to have good relations with Mexico, i'm sure they'd manage to ship thier troops through the CSA and open another front in the US, possilby in southern California. I can just imagine LA in ruins while Mexican and Japanese forces battle it out against determined US forces.
 
Assuming similar populations, the US would have had @110 million people in 1940, with Canada and the CSA having a combined population of less than 40 million. Of course one of Turtledove's great blunders was the assumption that the US still gutted immigration, since the South was the great opponent of immigration. The US could easily have another 20 million ESPECIALLY given the need to settle Canada after WWI ended.

No need to repeat just how stupid it was to pretend WWI in the Pacific just died away. I guess Turtledove thought Germany was glad to lose its possessions there? Ditto the massive guerilla activity. What a joke! Between blacks in the CSA and all the colonies of England and France I can just see that being encouraged by London, Paris, or Richmond. Likewise such activity in Poland, given the choice between Kaiser and Tsar finding one Pole in a hundred for Russia would take effort. And the election of Herbert Hoover? HAH!

The US may not have lost the UK investment as the Brits still want the profits. Further, US armaments and transport(trains) would have boomed in this world and it isn't hard to see Englishmen seeking a cut of the inevitable profits. Remember, Germany's largest trading partner in 1914 AND 1939 was France.

I would really like to know about any other territorial changes in the world. I can imagine Sierra Leone given to Liberia, British and French Somalia to Ethiopia, maybe all of Yucatan to Guatamala.

Oh, and with racism on the rise in so many places, I guess Herr Doktors Einstein, Bohrs, Szilard, etc. just stayed home in Germany and Austria?

Heh heh heh heh heh...

The good news is that the Pacific will be genuinely peaceful. After Japan joins the US and Germany, the Brits and Aussies will be down real fast.
 
The fact of the matter is that this World war more resembles OTL WW2. Two Powers have been left supreme in the World (Okay Japan is a definatly a Power probably on par with France compared to the US in the OTL Cold War). With Germany victorious in WW1 their is NO WAY IN HELL THEY WILL LOSE WITHOUT AT LEAST AMERICA AGAINST THEM. The Germans are going to Rule most of Europe. There going to have 20 years to consolidate their hold and to develope most of europe to their needs. They could easily rape the combined forces of the Brits, French, Russians, and Italians. The war is going to be fake. Germany cant lose against Just the other europeans, dont you understand. It would be on par with all of the America's going to war with the US. Sure we would lose quite a few guys but we still would win, the only thing lengthing the war would be occuping land. You might think that the Brits and French would have a hard time allying with the US. Think again. The enemy of my enemy is my friend. To the French and English the Germans our the main enemy. The Germans our the ones who annex parts of france and took colonies in Africa. The Germans are the ones who the French and english fought most. The Brits wouldnt have that hard a time allying with the Americans. For one thing America would not be as hard as Turtledove suggests. Also we should share culture, history, and our political climate would be more alike with a powerful socialist party in the US. Also the British had A LOT of trade with the US. I dont think they would have any problem telling the Confeds to screw themselves.

The Confeds have the same problem as the Europeans do. To defeat America they have to have the other Superpower on their side. That means German as well as possibly Japan.

I know Turtledove wants make the Brits, French, and Southerns to be the bad guys but I think he is doing a shoddy job of it. It just doesnt make sense.
 

Grey Wolf

Donor
Well, for me the major drawback is that Turtledove wants as close to OTL WW2 as he can get - ignoring a lot of probable political realities and the fact that countries change alliances over decades, he wants a revival of the CSA-UK-France-Russia alliance against a USA-Germany-Japan one. The major difference of course is the different position of the USA in this war, and as stated that effect is going to be massive...but probably under-stated by Turtledove

For me, France is a problem. By what right does Charles XI demand a plebiscite in Alsace-Lorraine ??? These provinces have been German for 70 years, he can't just assume that the idea of a plebiscite has any legitimacy and it ought to be laughed out of court. The fact that the Kaiser is ailing should not matter massively - the Supreme Command, and the Crown Prince should be able to take over a degree of policy. Even with a SPD government (and Turtledove never says who is in power there) it should not be the serious disadvantage to German foreign policy that it appears to be.

Why is Poland not a happy-enough German ally ? The Poles surely do not want to go back to Russian rule, and the fact that Poland reborn owes its life to the Germans should indicate that that way lies a better future.

Grey Wolf
 
well, Britain could concievably ally with the US for the reasons given, but I don't think HT is going to do that... I think he'll keep the alliances the same. I think Germany is in for a rough time of it.... unlike OTL, they won the Great War, so they don't have the incentive to improve their tactics and machines. Germany will be playing out the old saying about how victors don't improve because they did win; they'll be preparing for trench warfare, while the French and Brits will be fighting a mobile mechanized war. The same is true for the US and CSA, although the US has Morrell and Dowling, who seem to have a better grasp on armored warfare. Thus, I would predict that Germany will fall and the US will have a desperate fight on her hands but will win in the end and come to Germany's aid (D-Day anyone?).
I still hope that the US and UK will fight a series of big carrier battles in the Atlantic... I don't know why that appeals to me so much, but I just find the idea really neat... :cool:
 

Faeelin

Banned
Michael E Johnson said:
) and I think its really interesting how HT demonstrates that given the right conditions Britons,French and former Americans could be numbered among histories greatest villians rather than the Germans as per OTL.

You mean if the author gives everyone brain transplants?

I still don't get why Britain wuld have any desire to intervene in the 2nd mexican war when it didn't in the franco-prussian.

Or, come to that, why the french help prop up the mexican legacy of bonaparte's empire.
 
Well, of course Turtledove has to ignore reality to make his personal ideas work. Grey Wolf hit the nail on the head in his post.

From my perspective, he had the US elect Herbert Hoover AS HE EXISTED IN OUR TIMELINE after 50 years of large standing armies, foreign alliances, government expansion, etc. Why not just predict the election of Ronald Reagan to fight the Cold War IN THE ELECTION OF 2032?
 
Faeelin said:
You mean if the author gives everyone brain transplants?

I still don't get why Britain wuld have any desire to intervene in the 2nd mexican war when it didn't in the franco-prussian.

Or, come to that, why the french help prop up the mexican legacy of bonaparte's empire.

I think it is because they want to take the Yankees down a peg, whereas in 1870 Napoleon III's Empire could still be partly considered a potential enemy for Britain, and Prussia not as bad.

And I think the French sorta stopped helping their pet Mexicans after the Second Mexican War, because by the 1920s they weren't involved in the civil war like the CSA was, in a way.
 
It seems to me Turtledove could be heading for two possibilities: (1) an expected round 2 between the US/German alliance and the UK/France/CSA alliance, or (2) a much more confusing situation with multiple overlapping wars, which is also like OTL WW2, but with diferent alignments. I agree with most posters that there is no way the USA will be anything but hostile to the UK and France. He indicates, however, that the US is becoming disenchanted with its German ally and might not help it in its fights with England and France, while the focus in North America will be strictly USA vs CSA. Japan will remain a wild card, but most likely fight the USA, if for no other reason than fictional narrative.

Personally, I don't see how the USA and Germany can lose their respective wars without a lot of plot machinations. Germany is by far the dominant power in Europe - and the novels up to now have given little edvidence they've gotten soft and unmilitaristic. Plus, as several posters have pointed out, there is no reason they won't develop atomic bombs well before anyone else now that they don't have Hitler running off their Jewish scientists.

The USA IS soft and unmilitaristic (damn those Socialists anyway!), but has so much greater military potential than the CSA that it's hard to imagine how HT could pull off a CSA victory in the long run.

My guess is that the war will end with the German Empire even stronger than before - and be the only power armed with nuclear weapons. France may no longer exist as an independent power and GB will be weakend significantly. The USA will win its war against the CSA, but be bogged down in guerilla actions all over North America. Japan may or may not fight a war with the USA, but the result will probably be inconclusive. The stage will be set for yet another series of books focusing on how the USA and Japan eventually get nukes themselves, and fight as allies, maybe with the UK on their side, against a world dominated by an arrogant authoritarian Germanic Willhelmine superpower. And guess who'll win. Or maybe the Russians hold up in Samarkand will become devil-worshipers and pour out of the steppes and crush the Germans - ooops wrong book.
 

Raymann

Banned
I think it would be nice to hear about a few other thearters of the war. North Africa although that depends on Italy's involvement, the Middle East with their heavy German allegiances, and of course Russia although I forgot if it went communists after the war.
 
WWII rerun

Most of the oil in the North is in the Rockies or on the other side, sort of like most of the oil in Russia was in the Caucasus or on the other side, thus, Stalingrad as the Germans tried to take the Russian oil. The oil used to go up the river on barges and rails, but the Russians relaid the rails across the river and the Germans couldn't cut the Russian oil supply.
So the CSA tries to cut the railroad to Salt Lake City, but the US still keeps the oil flowing farther north, through Canada and the Northern Pacific railroad?
 
Japan does have one possible incentive to enter the war: Hawaii. With the US distracted by war inside it's borders and a possible Atlantic naval war with Britain, might not Japan use this time to sneak in and grab the islands? Of course, when the US ends up victorious in the end, they would be mighty peeved....
 

Grey Wolf

Donor
Raymann said:
I think it would be nice to hear about a few other thearters of the war. North Africa although that depends on Italy's involvement, the Middle East with their heavy German allegiances, and of course Russia although I forgot if it went communists after the war.

Russia is a monarchy under Tsar Michael II after the failure of the Reds in the long civil war. Again, I would ask why Turtledove has Russia so obviously on the same side as France and Britain in his rematch. Surely, in the winning of the civil war the monarchists relied heavily upon the Germans for aid ? One cannot imagine the defeated Entente powers doing anything, so if Germany helped put Michael on the throne then would this not balance out any lingering resentment over loss of territory ?

Grey Wolf
 
Hawaii as a strategic asset

Hawaii's only military value is as a port controlling ship traffic through the middle of the North Pacific, the way Diego Garcia dominates the Indian Ocean.
Well, it also has a shield volcano in a lower lattitude with a great slope for a magnetic launcher for equatorial low earth orbit....So it's really more of a Suez location for me.
Unless the US is going to interfere in Japan's grab for Borneo and New Guinea (coal, oil, pulp, rubber, palm oil, tin, rice, sugar, fish and more oil, copper, gold, nickel, cobalt, silver, vanadium, iron, titania, bauxite, rice, fish, coffee, rubber, chocolate, sugar), then Japan is not going to pay any attention to a fish, sugar and tourism island like Hawaii.
Alaska maybe...
 
I agree that Turtledove is going to have France and the UK at war with AMerica or at least hostile but I do not agree that this is plausible and I think that if zoomar is right in saying alot of posters agree with Turtledove, then your heads are in the sand. Im not saying that its imposiible to set up a war in the 30's in 40's with America on the opposite side as the UK and France but Turtledoves series isnt it. First you would have to have either America lose and Germany win or vise versa in ATL WW1. This I think would be more interesting.

Think about it. Lets say the British dont send as many forces to Canada as they did. America eventually wins in the north and slowly and costly pushes it way into the south. The confederacy and mexico sign an armistice in the springof 1919. Wide spread starvation in Germany leads to an armistice in europe in the fall. The British,French, and Japanese are stuck with a war against an America that occupies most of North America including their caribean colonies, thier former N. American allies have lost the will to fight. All sides settle for a peace of the status quo(Whats the American's control are theres). 2o years of cold war leads to advances in technology on both sides, though not egaul. When war finnaly breaks out later in 40's Robert Goddard is building the first ICBM and pointing across the atlantic while American scientist(along with several Germans wanting to see the powers that are holding their country down pay) are racing to build the Atomic Bomb.

Now that would be cool.

To recap I think that France and Britain only hope is America, Germany and America have no reason to be friends and plenty to be enemies, Featherston would probably love Guderian's Austrian aide, and the Japanese can learn to like suerkraut and barbecue.
 
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