Royal Navy takes heavier losses at Jutland

[Basileus444]

The British suffered some near misses from torpedoes at Jutland that could have been quite painful. The POD is that Lady Luck is not so kind to the British and the near misses turn into hits.​

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List of near-misses for British at Jutland:​

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1) Torpedo hit but did not explode on Revenge (Robert K. Massie, Castles of Steel, pg. 623), one passed ten yards before bow and another twenty from stern (Massie, 630; V.E. Tarrant, Jutland: The German Perspective, pg. 167).​

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All three successfully hit and detonate. Revenge sunk.​

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2) Marlborough would have been hit stern if helm not swinging and one passed under the ship but went too deep (Massie, 629-30; Tarrant, 167)​

Marlborough already had one torpedo hit, either from Wiesbaden or V-48 which caused a 7 degree list and slowed her to 17 knots. (Arthur Marder, Jutland and After, Vol. 3, From the Dreadnought to Scapa Flow, pg. 123) ​

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Assume one hits in addition to earlier torpedo hit. Marlborough sinks.​

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3) Agincourt had one pass port and another starboard (Massie, 630)​

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One torpedo hits. Agincourt moderately damaged.​

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4) Neptune was pursued by one, either deflected by prop wash or ran out of fuel (Massie, 630, Tarrant, pg. 155)​

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Torpedo hits. Neptune heavily damaged. ​

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5) One torpedo passed between Thunderer and Iron Duke (Tarrant, pg. 167).​

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Torpedo hits Thunderer and inflicts moderate damage. ​

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6) U-51 attacked Warspite on morning of June 1 without destroyer screen. ​

She tried to fire two torpedoes but one never launched and the other broke surface, warning Warspite so she can dodge. U-51 did not pursue as she misidentified her as a pre-dreadnought Canopus class (Tarrant, pg. 243).​

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U-51 has better luck and manages to sink the damaged Warspite. ​

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7) Bauer, the U-boat leader, ordered U-32 and U-24 to stay out an extra day and to change patrols from Firth of Forth to the Tyne mouth to intercept damaged British warships. U-70 did not receive the order because it was attacked and forced to dive repeatedly and so left on June 1 per its original orders. Thus Beatty was able to return without any trouble (Tarrant, pg. 244-45). ​

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The order to stay an extra day gets received by at least two of the three subs but are not transferred to the Tyne. One of them is able to put a torpedo into Tiger and sink her. ​

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8) U-43 and U-44 were stationed off the Pentland Firth approach to Scapa Flow. U-43 never received the order to stay out an extra day and returned before Jellicoe arrived. U-44 did stay but rough weather prevented any attack (Tarrant, pg. 245).​

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Both U-boats receive the order to stay out and the weather is more cooperative. One of them is able to put a torpedo into the Orion for moderate damage. ​

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So in addition to the OTL losses the British have lost three battleships and one battle cruiser and have four battleships damaged. German losses are the same as OTL as Scheer is still able to slip behind Jellicoe and makes it home.​

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How does this affect the future course of the naval war, particularly considering that U-boats were responsible for sinking one battleship and battlecruiser and damaging another battleship?​

 

[Carl Schwamberger]

More attention to ASW?

 

[sharlin]

Yep and some newer ships built to replace the losses. The cancelled Queen Elisabeth gets laid down again as does another R.

A question. When it comes to Jutland why is it always this.

RN take more losses for X Y Z reasons (99% of them magazine explosions)
RM take no additional losses as per OTL even after defeating the Grand fleet in a 4 hour gunnery duel.

 

[Carl Schwamberger]

...
A question. When it comes to Jutland why is it always this.

RN take more losses for X Y Z reasons (99% of them magazine explosions)
RM take no additional losses as per OTL even after defeating the Grand fleet in a 4 hour gunnery duel.

Well, ther ewas this one: https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?p=9657378#post9657378

..and there was another asking about id the Brit fleet had turned left during the night and intercepted the enemy after dawn?

 

[ghappy1000]

Could two extra British battleships sunk cause the Germans to fight out the next day? Or be more aggressive with torpedo boat attacks?

 

[sharlin]

The Germans would still be outnumbered, their light forces had taken a pounding the 1st Scouting Group was basically wrecked or out of ammo. Disengaging against a superior foe is the wisest thing to do, even with 2 extra losses the Germans are still heavily outnumbered.

 

[elkarlo]

Perhaps during the run to the south a RN ship is crippled. Leaving the squadron to protect the wounded one, perhaps anotber BC or BB gets sunk. If the germs s could not run into the RN head first. Perhaps we'll see a more aggressive German navy. Which would make replacing merchant loses harder in 1917

 

[sharlin]

Again this is going off the standard premise for Jutland alterations

RN gets teeth kicked in.

RM suffers NO additional losses.

If in the run to the South a Queen class ship was slowed, and the squadron stayed with it you've then got 4 of probably the best warships in the world with the largest gun in the world and one of the most accurate weapons of its type. EVER facing you. The arrival of these four ships helped Beatty immensely and basically knocked the Von Der Tann out of the fight.

So now you're gonna fight them, their escorting flotillas and probably Goodenough's light cruisers and take no losses?

Bollocks.

And before ANYONE says it NO they won't have turret magazine explosions and the Grand Fleet won't have ships exploding because a German Dreadnought looks at them sternly. Unlike the Idiot in charge of the BCF, the Grand Fleet never ignored its ammo handling principles and retained its anti-flash measures.

 

[NHBL]

Subs...

This POD implies far better luck, and probably better attention paid to torpedo reliability by the German navy. The sub service is riding high after doing so much damage, and gets LOTS of prestige. Prestige = money. But, ASW becomes a crash priority as well, and British yards resume heavy ship production. The High Seas Fleet is still going be be in the yard for a long long time. Final strategic results are minimal--the illegal blockade is still in place.

 

[sharlin]

the illegal blockade is still in place.

Dat can of worms...

Not gonna touch that one. The legality of the blockade has been argued for decades by people with far more knowledge than us.

 

[deathscompanion1]

Dat can of worms...

Not gonna touch that one. The legality of the blockade has been argued for decades by people with far more knowledge than us.

There is an argument?

It was illegal but the Royal Navy was the police of the sea and the Americans eventually stopped giving a shit once they shifted to being purely pro allied.

Legally there just isn't an argument. Food was not listed as contraband and part of the blockade was definitely aimed at Starving Germany by preventing ships carrying food through.

 

[GarethC]

A question. When it comes to Jutland why is it always this.

RN take more losses for X Y Z reasons (99% of them magazine explosions)
RM take no additional losses as per OTL even after defeating the Grand fleet in a 4 hour gunnery duel.

Because all the best bad guys are British, and everybody should want the good guys to win, which must obviously therefore be the CP.

Because Americans love underdogs, so we hate the British Empire and all the zealots who keep reminding us who abolished slavery first, which is also why we shove references to the "Queen of England" in as often as we can. It's also why it's allowed to root for the Brits in WW2, although it does require a bit of doublethink to rebrand the empire on which the sun never sets to a plucky little island that stood alone against the Luftwaffe.

Because Germans are soooooooo cool, with the monocles and the spiked helmets and everything. I know, because it makes me look less fat when I ride my Harley. Okay, that bit's not true, the only thing that makes me look less fat is Photoshop.

Because the Italians weren't at Jutland, so asking them to take more losses is a bit unfair.

Because the Reichsmarine doesn't get formed until after the war, so trying to sink them involves space-time-warp-wormhole-thingies, and so has to go into the ASB forum, but nobody writes stuff there that isn't to do with sodding Game of sodding Thrones, apart from the Bristol group and that Warhammer timeline, which only emphasizes how cool Germans are, even if the authors seem to have forgotten the spiked helmets.

Okay, I admit I got nuthin.

 

[Zheng He]

Because Americans love underdog.

Yes we do, it's why we don't talk much about the Pacific War post June 1942.

I guess it also helps explain the bizarre and somewhat creepy fascination some people in this country still have for the CSA.

 

[Zheng He]

There is an argument?

It was illegal but the Royal Navy was the police of the sea and the Americans eventually stopped giving a shit once they shifted to being purely pro allied.

Legally there just isn't an argument. Food was not listed as contraband and part of the blockade was definitely aimed at Starving Germany by preventing ships carrying food through.

Illegal in a vacuum but as you said, the RN was the police of the sea and in the international arena might still makes right or as the Athenians said to the Melians, "The strong do as they will, the weak do as they must."

It's also a matter of the fact that the British were simply stopping ships, the Germans were sinking them. As one American official (I can't remember who) said at the time, it's the difference between one guy looking up your sister's skirt and another guy raping your sister. Or something like that.

 

[sharlin]

Its the same with the Nazis. Yes their uniforms were designed by Hugo Boss and looked snazzy as all hell and yes they made some mean looking kit (even if it wasn't as good as the History channel likes to yell about).

BUT ITS THE FUCKING NAZIS!

I don't care if they looked awesome, they are the most evil regime this planet has probably ever seen. They are not some bunch of lovable cockney/irish scamps or brave underdogs in a fight against TEH EVUL EMPIRE!!!?!?!ONE, its. The. Nazis!

Still it could be worse, there could be people that write about how they want the Germans to win under adolf and stuff but try altering them into Not-Nazis...oh wait..we have those too.

Khaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan!

 

[johnboy]

Could two extra British battleships sunk cause the Germans to fight out the next day? Or be more aggressive with torpedo boat attacks?

It would be interesting. Lets assume all those torps ht and the HSF are then inspired to "fight it out."

It could be bad news for the Germans. They have far more damaged ships as they have come out of the gunnery exchange in far worse condition. Most of Hipper's units are only 20-30 minutes of close combat way from being involuntary U Boats.

In an extended fight, the German's probably lose 3-5 ships to the Grand Fleet's 1-2. All that then does is even the odds back up in regards to losses, not much comfort when you are the inferior force in regards to numbers at the start. Plus the HSG light forces will have shot most of the bolt and the RN light forces would likely move in to engage and cripples..

 

[johnboy]

Its the same with the Nazis. Yes their uniforms were designed by Hugo Boss and looked snazzy as all hell and yes they made some mean looking kit (even if it wasn't as good as the History channel likes to yell about).

BUT ITS THE FUCKING NAZIS!

I don't care if they looked awesome, they are the most evil regime this planet has probably ever seen. They are not some bunch of lovable cockney/irish scamps or brave underdogs in a fight against TEH EVUL EMPIRE!!!?!?!ONE, its. The. Nazis!

Still it could be worse, there could be people that write about how they want the Germans to win under adolf and stuff but try altering them into Not-Nazis...oh wait..we have those too.

Khaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan!

Come on, all men look good in basic black.................

 

[sharlin]

Come on, all men look good in basic black.................

*calmly gets a rolled up newspaper before beaning Johnboy round the back of the head.*

NO! NONE OF THAT! SHAME ON YOU!

 

[Grey Wolf]

Assuming you can take the losses during the battle and not actually alter the course of the battle - this may be so, since other dreadnoughts would take the place of those sunk or knocked out of line.

The submarines are going to be the winners here - and their role versus warships is going to be enhanced. This may long-term lead to no resumption of USW and no US entry into the war.

BUT the German fleet is still battered and gets home in that state. It is going to have much higher morale when it learns what the British losses are, tho it might not learn these reliably for some weeks.

It would certainly be likely to risk another battle, and come out looking for one in 1916. It would probably fail to find one.

Whether there is a long-term result of this?

Best regards
Grey Wolf

 

[wietze]

There is an argument?

It was illegal but the Royal Navy was the police of the sea and the Americans eventually stopped giving a shit once they shifted to being purely pro allied.

Legally there just isn't an argument. Food was not listed as contraband and part of the blockade was definitely aimed at Starving Germany by preventing ships carrying food through.

you can argue about the blockade against germany, the blockade was also aimed at NEUTRAL Netherlands, and caused a small scale famine in a neutral country. blockading an neutral country is illegal, but then again the british had a taste for criminal behaviour when it comes to warfare (boer war concentration camps anyone?), and there were several entente attacks on the Netherlands during ww1.

if you want to read a well done TL where the germans more or less win jutland, google 'Operation Unicorn' (its on another site)