That would make the Miles M24 Master Emergency Fighter a lot more potent, especially if they retained the original chin radiator from the Miles Kestrel prototype. The thing would be a close match for the Hurricane.
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"Sanity options" 2.0 - RAF, 1935-43
- Thread starter tomo pauk
- Start date
I don't really think so.
The Miles Master with the mercury engine would have had very similar hp to a Peregrine and didn't challenge the Hurricane. Unless structural changes with the mercury were to blame.
Anyway the point of the M24 Emergency Fighter was that it didn't need new production engines so the Peregrine engined Masters probably wouldn't be around at the same time as the M24 emergency program.
Are there any other plausible designs that could have used the Peregrine. I'm just thinking if theres a half dozen applications in service then maybe the Peregrine would have continued development. Mind you that mightn't be the best idea as I mentioned above that Rolls Royce needed focus.
There was a Gloster Reaper prototype with a Peregrine.
As a Vulture was just a pair of Peregrines, if you save Vulture then Peregrine carries on as a side effect.
Easiest option is probably cancelling the RR Exe and putting that design team on Vulture / Peregrine. As that team was led by Rowledge who designed Lion, R, Kestrel and development of Merlin I'd be confident they would get Vulture to work
Peregrine was making 885 HP at 15000 ft. Mercury XX (a low-altitude version used on Master) was making 600 HP at 15000 ft, and maxing out with 870 HP at 4500 ft. The Peregrine-powered gun-armed Master would've been tad faster than the original Miles Kestrel (296 mph per Wikipedia), that used best historical version of the engine (Mk. XVI; 745 HP at 14500 ft).
Master I received the low-altitude Kestrel XXX, and also the good-awful radiator layout - perhaps someone was of opinion that extra drag is a good thing (nah, it was probably relocated to the belly position for CoG reasons).
Vulture was not just a pair of Peregrines.
Yes, Exe was really redundant.
Certainly less of a hassle than when Fury gotten a 9 cyl radial for Persia, or when Italian fighters were swithching from the 14 cyl radial to the V12s? Better power at altitude than even the latest Dagger, and less temperamental engine to begin with.
Another candidate migth've been the Gloster F.5/34 - possibly easier to retrofit it with the a bit lighter and smaller Peregrine than the Merlin.
The key difference is the change from the original chin radiator on the Kestrel prototype to the high drag belly radiator on the Master I and the high drag radial of the Master II and III. The Kestrel prototype with a 745hp Kestrel engine and chin radiator could do 290ish Mph (More than the early 109's of the Spanish Civil War). That same aircraft fitted with the Peregrine would have 100 extra HP of power is going to push performance up to near Hurricane I level. The Mercury radial engine adds a lot of drag to the otherwise clean Kestrel/Master airframe. They nobbled the Master's top speed performance because they thought it was too much for a trainer as it was quicker than many front line fighters in service around the world at the time of the Kestrel's first flight.
A Miles Master/Kestrel powered by a Peregrine engine would have at least as good performance as the French MS 406 fighter and probably a bit better.
Using the Peregrine for the "auxiliary fighter" version of the Kestrel trainer would give not only valuable OTU experience to pilots who could get their initial experience using the two seat Kestrel trainer that utilised and recycled some of the thousand plus Kestrel engines in the RAF inventory. The Mercury engine Master would still be the primary training aircraft with only fighter pilots going onto the Kestrel and Peregrine engine advance trainer and fighter versions.
This would reduce wear and tear on both the Spitfire and Hurricane in Squadron service and hopefully reduce the high accident rate.
When France falls the Peregrine fighter with its six Browning's will be quite capable of defending UK airspace in the Northern groups, which frees up
Hurricanes and Spitfires for the Southern Groups.
Having proper fighter OYU's in 1938 would be of enormous value to Fighter Command providing more skilful pilots , who had a better chance of surviving their early days in combat whilst also permitting the said squadrons fight more efficiently as they are having to do less nurse maiding.
This would reduce wear and tear on both the Spitfire and Hurricane in Squadron service and hopefully reduce the high accident rate.
When France falls the Peregrine fighter with its six Browning's will be quite capable of defending UK airspace in the Northern groups, which frees up
Hurricanes and Spitfires for the Southern Groups.
Having proper fighter OYU's in 1938 would be of enormous value to Fighter Command providing more skilful pilots , who had a better chance of surviving their early days in combat whilst also permitting the said squadrons fight more efficiently as they are having to do less nurse maiding.
I am asking for help here, i am trying to find a logical way to have Sir Keith Park take over fighter command in 1937/8 and Sir Hugh Dowding being promoted to CAS to replace Ellington at the same time. By the way Both Leigh-Mallory and Slessor would be in Army Cooperation Group/Command at this time. In Line with my earlier post these appointments are all part of the quite revolution in the RAF from 1936 to 1939.
I think Park's 3 years in Argentina as a diplomatic attache 1934 to 1937 was dead time for his career.
If you avoid that dead time you could have him do quiet a bit to push forward his own case. I reckon if Park is with Fighter command in 1934-1937 he could do a lot.
His historic appointment was in many ways luck (Park was supposed to be sent to the middle east in 1938).
Given that the replacement of Ellington was historically a solo run by the minister changing the minister or his opinions would allow for a change in replacement. Ellington favoured Dowding as his replacement.
I'm going to try making a stab at doing this, without too much poring over books! should have tried before, but better late than never!
Where to start!? Well lets say that at the 1935 Hendon Air Show, - airframe & engine makers are gathered together, are given a 'pep' talk by senior RAF officers - 'Gentleman the times they are a changing. In the past you fought each other to get small orders, I'm here to tell you that in future orders will be substantial, you may not be able to cope, we will require others to assist.
Fighters:
The start of 'modern' fighters started with F.5/34 - modern in that it was an eight gun monoplane. Yet, AFAIR a 'colonial' aircraft - suitable for rough strips etc. hence the majority of designs were with radials.
Here Glosters got a team together who concentrated on the new fighter, with the new fighter taking to the skies in January 1936. The aircraft handled well, The RAF ordered a few hundred (while reducing orders for the Gladiator), when it appeared at the 1936 Hendon air show - the international response was similar - especially where countries had an interest in license production of Bristol engines e.g. Finland, Poland, and (I think Norway). Also, when the Mission from Australia did they worldwide tour, it was of great interest to them.
The RAF OTOH seeing the potential of the Merlin, OTOH aware of some of the teething problems sought a more powerful engine for the Gloster twin, Bristol assured them that the Mercury will get better, if not they will be the Taurus, while Alvis proposed the Pelides Major which piqued their interest. To help them with capacity, they encouraged a link up with Napier (who had been struggling for orders).
Later the RAF seeing the need for a more powerful armament, hence spec. F.37/35 for a 4 x 20 cannon armed fighter. Both Hawker & Supermarine, were excluded so as not divert attention from their main design. Prototypes were ordered two from Bolton-Paul (s/s & s/e), Westland & Supermarine (both s/s & twin/e) - the Treasury authorised three (otl only Westland). Earlier in the process as a back up, the Ministry asked Gloster to supply adapt their turret fight fighter design, to just f/ward 2 x 20mm cannon & 4 x 0.303" MGs with Mercurys rather than Aquilas.
The B-P Vulture powered prototype took to the air first, not a success, crashed - cause found to be engine problems - caused the AM to lose faith in the engine. The Hercules version was delayed due h.p. of the engine, finally took to the skies in late summer of '38, handled well but underpowered! Bristol tried to reassure the AM that the 1500 version would soon be available, but the AM returned to Alvis - this time for their Alcides Major giving 1650/1725 h.p. - once these became available to fit into the waiting airframes.
The aircraft served the RAF well until replaced by the Centaurus powered Hawker Tornado.
Meanwhile, the Gloster twin was a success, negating the need for a Blenheim 'fighter' (though some of the early bombers were converted to act as NF trainers). and space was found behind the pilot for a radar operator - they were earlier and faster than the later Beaufighter, making an impact during the Blitz. Yet, earlier Trafford Leigh-Mallory noticed one while on a visit to Gloster and said 'can it carry bombs?'
Bombers
When spec's B.12/36 & P.13/36 were issued it was noticed the overlap with an earlier spec. of B.1/35 hence all the makers pulled out, to contrate on the later designs. Rumours of the problems with the Vulture meant that no designs included those engines. For the B.12/35 spec. the Boulton-Paul & and the Vickers designs were accepted. Shorts were thought to be too busy on their flying boats - the 'C' class Sunderland, and the longer range 'G' Class ('Atlantic gap' just a figment of some AH dreams).
With the Halifax & Manchester (4 Merlins) were for the P.13/35 spec. However, after financial restrictions delayed the four engined heavy bomber orders, the AM threw their own 'curve ball - an ordered the Bristol design powered by two-Hercules engines at 80' the smallest of the designs. It complemented the Wellington, and because of the spec could carry two torpedoes. As production grew other aircraft were fazed out - Blenheim, Hampden, and CC Anson.
This is to be continued
Where to start!? Well lets say that at the 1935 Hendon Air Show, - airframe & engine makers are gathered together, are given a 'pep' talk by senior RAF officers - 'Gentleman the times they are a changing. In the past you fought each other to get small orders, I'm here to tell you that in future orders will be substantial, you may not be able to cope, we will require others to assist.
Fighters:
The start of 'modern' fighters started with F.5/34 - modern in that it was an eight gun monoplane. Yet, AFAIR a 'colonial' aircraft - suitable for rough strips etc. hence the majority of designs were with radials.
Here Glosters got a team together who concentrated on the new fighter, with the new fighter taking to the skies in January 1936. The aircraft handled well, The RAF ordered a few hundred (while reducing orders for the Gladiator), when it appeared at the 1936 Hendon air show - the international response was similar - especially where countries had an interest in license production of Bristol engines e.g. Finland, Poland, and (I think Norway). Also, when the Mission from Australia did they worldwide tour, it was of great interest to them.
The RAF OTOH seeing the potential of the Merlin, OTOH aware of some of the teething problems sought a more powerful engine for the Gloster twin, Bristol assured them that the Mercury will get better, if not they will be the Taurus, while Alvis proposed the Pelides Major which piqued their interest. To help them with capacity, they encouraged a link up with Napier (who had been struggling for orders).
Later the RAF seeing the need for a more powerful armament, hence spec. F.37/35 for a 4 x 20 cannon armed fighter. Both Hawker & Supermarine, were excluded so as not divert attention from their main design. Prototypes were ordered two from Bolton-Paul (s/s & s/e), Westland & Supermarine (both s/s & twin/e) - the Treasury authorised three (otl only Westland). Earlier in the process as a back up, the Ministry asked Gloster to supply adapt their turret fight fighter design, to just f/ward 2 x 20mm cannon & 4 x 0.303" MGs with Mercurys rather than Aquilas.
The B-P Vulture powered prototype took to the air first, not a success, crashed - cause found to be engine problems - caused the AM to lose faith in the engine. The Hercules version was delayed due h.p. of the engine, finally took to the skies in late summer of '38, handled well but underpowered! Bristol tried to reassure the AM that the 1500 version would soon be available, but the AM returned to Alvis - this time for their Alcides Major giving 1650/1725 h.p. - once these became available to fit into the waiting airframes.
The aircraft served the RAF well until replaced by the Centaurus powered Hawker Tornado.
Meanwhile, the Gloster twin was a success, negating the need for a Blenheim 'fighter' (though some of the early bombers were converted to act as NF trainers). and space was found behind the pilot for a radar operator - they were earlier and faster than the later Beaufighter, making an impact during the Blitz. Yet, earlier Trafford Leigh-Mallory noticed one while on a visit to Gloster and said 'can it carry bombs?'
Bombers
When spec's B.12/36 & P.13/36 were issued it was noticed the overlap with an earlier spec. of B.1/35 hence all the makers pulled out, to contrate on the later designs. Rumours of the problems with the Vulture meant that no designs included those engines. For the B.12/35 spec. the Boulton-Paul & and the Vickers designs were accepted. Shorts were thought to be too busy on their flying boats - the 'C' class Sunderland, and the longer range 'G' Class ('Atlantic gap' just a figment of some AH dreams).
With the Halifax & Manchester (4 Merlins) were for the P.13/35 spec. However, after financial restrictions delayed the four engined heavy bomber orders, the AM threw their own 'curve ball - an ordered the Bristol design powered by two-Hercules engines at 80' the smallest of the designs. It complemented the Wellington, and because of the spec could carry two torpedoes. As production grew other aircraft were fazed out - Blenheim, Hampden, and CC Anson.
This is to be continued
Great post, but much as I've been against the Trenchard types, the thesis of Jeremy Thin at https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/docum...&doi=66d77ad2713bc1a5dd80e9c7894e0981a4ca594d shows that they may have had much better evidence than we tend to think.
One point is that the evidence from the zeppelin raids in WW1 was that the civilian morale WAS severely effected by them, as evidence showed. As noted earlier, a RAF study referred to a 14 plane Gotha strike on London in 1917 dropped less than 5 tons of bombs and killed 162 people and injured over 430. Scale that up to possible WW2 level and it becomes a staggering death toll, with accompanying severe morale effects. In Hull when there were raids by single Zeppelins "tens of thousands of people" ran out of the city and slept in the fields, so the Brits had other evidence of the morale effect.
So much as I have loved to hate the bomber fans, the reality is that there was evidence on their side. The evidence just didn't seem to allow for much improved civil defence precautions and perhaps a different attitude among civilians.
I'm sure the Gallant service of the Holster F5/34 pilots will be greatly appreciated.
The effect of ariel bombing on the British public was a panic reaction and as a data base was far to small in realty to form a firm basis for setting an entire new line of strategic thinking. The High Command of the RFC were only too eager to exploit the public and political fear of what was then an unknown form of warfare. Once set down that road by Trenchard in 1919 no one was permitted to question the hallowed fable of the mighty effect of arial bombardment. So yes I do hold the Air Ministry and the RAF to account for their blind faith in their own Myth during the inter war period.
@sonofpegasus - the RAF was obsessed with 'Independence' therefore and became a biped force standing on the legs of the Independent Bomber Force that was (i.e. Bomber Command), and the Anti-Zeppelin/Gotha Fighter force (i.e. Fighter Command), with this biped, having a tail - as a sop to the Navy (Coastal Command). This in sharp contrast to the RFC whose main function was to support the Army, and to protect the aircraft that were supporting the Army.
The aircraft that the RAF used to 'support' the Army in the early war years were not purpose built (except for the Lysander), nothing to compare with the Geran Ju-87, or Henshel 123, or the Soviet IL-2, or even the French Br.693.
The aircraft that the RAF used to 'support' the Army in the early war years were not purpose built (except for the Lysander), nothing to compare with the Geran Ju-87, or Henshel 123, or the Soviet IL-2, or even the French Br.693.
The sad thing is that they could have had with the Bristol 148 B (With the Taurus Engine). Designed to the same specification as the Lysander and performing just as well from rough fields it was rejected largely because the Lysander's high wing was better for gunnery observation. It would have been just right to provide close air support for the Army. Get these for an Army Co Operation Command under Trafford Leigh Mallory and you'd have a very nasty shock for the Germans.
Bristol Type 148 - Wikipedia
Looking at the dates of the Lysander, and noting the spec was intending to replace the Audax, and the Hector, why the AM after ordering the Hector in Feb '36 and more in April! Cancel the extra 100 and get the 148. As it was 26th May 1940 Hectors dive-bombed German troops near Calais - while Henleys were stuck with target towing!
To carry on from my earlier post:
Hurricanes are being built in the Austin shadow factory, so no loss of numbers with Gloster building the monoplane fighter.
Also, with Boulton-Paul having a full order book, they don't have any space to build the Blackburn Roc! Hence, the RN FAA re-evaluated and ordered a navalised version the Gloster fighter - especially with less chance of the Sea Gladiator. Not only that but with the concept of the 'turret fighter' losing its kudos, though Dowding would have like to cancel the Defiant, the production line produced two versions - w/turret, & s/s w/out - the latter was faster than the Hurricane but not quite so maneuverable.
Sadly, because of the specialised construction the 4-engine Vickers 'Warwick' was only able to be made by Vickers, gradually Wellington production eased back. In turn it was replaced by the Vickers Windsor, that could carry larger bombs.
Non-strategic materials bomber - an exacting spec. only Armstrong Whitworth seemed to be left - yet, such was the need for the 4-engine bombers in the foreseeable future,, they advised the AM that they'd drop out. While the AM were left scratching their heads thinking what now - a knock on the door an a gentleman from De Haviland walks in and says - 'I have an idea'!! That is the Mossie arrives earlier than OTL.
I want to get the Henley included, but can't quite decide how to or when - order originally as per spec., or converted back to that in Autumn of '39 (after hearing what Lw Stukas did in Poland).
Hurricanes are being built in the Austin shadow factory, so no loss of numbers with Gloster building the monoplane fighter.
Also, with Boulton-Paul having a full order book, they don't have any space to build the Blackburn Roc! Hence, the RN FAA re-evaluated and ordered a navalised version the Gloster fighter - especially with less chance of the Sea Gladiator. Not only that but with the concept of the 'turret fighter' losing its kudos, though Dowding would have like to cancel the Defiant, the production line produced two versions - w/turret, & s/s w/out - the latter was faster than the Hurricane but not quite so maneuverable.
Sadly, because of the specialised construction the 4-engine Vickers 'Warwick' was only able to be made by Vickers, gradually Wellington production eased back. In turn it was replaced by the Vickers Windsor, that could carry larger bombs.
Non-strategic materials bomber - an exacting spec. only Armstrong Whitworth seemed to be left - yet, such was the need for the 4-engine bombers in the foreseeable future,, they advised the AM that they'd drop out. While the AM were left scratching their heads thinking what now - a knock on the door an a gentleman from De Haviland walks in and says - 'I have an idea'!! That is the Mossie arrives earlier than OTL.
I want to get the Henley included, but can't quite decide how to or when - order originally as per spec., or converted back to that in Autumn of '39 (after hearing what Lw Stukas did in Poland).