Sir John Valentine Carden Survives. Part 2.

[diestormlie]

Back to the Churchill for a second. I just checked back and there was a post all but confirming that no more Churchill's will be ordered.

Because I really can't imagine, well, the commander of any British armoured unit going 'Yes, I would choose the Churchill over the Victor.' Or even maybe over the Valiant!

Additionally? The Churchill is a big tank. I'd bet that it'd require more steel than the Victor on a unit-for-unit basis. For a less versatile tank, already substandard in some ways, with little room for development.

The clincher might well be that Vauxhall is winding down its Tank design team, actually. I don't imagine that the War Office and the Ministry of Supply, upon asking for preliminary designs for an upgraded Churchill, would be particularly enthused by answers of 'Do we really have to?' and 'We'll need a few weeks whilst we bodge a team back together for it'.

Honestly, I could see the MoS taking the Churchill to Vickers and going 'What can you do with this?' Which might, amusingly, also elicit an answer of 'Do we really have to?'

((And, of course, there is a war on. If the Government feels that it needs to cancel the Churchill order, it will.))

 

[weNEEDlove]

Snip

I’m actually a bit sad that doesn’t seem like the Churchill was widened in 1940/1939 ITTL. Could have been very funny, and add a bit to the story.

 

[Derek Pullem]

I’m actually a bit sad that the Churchill Hull wasn’t widened ITTL. Could have been fun, and add a bit to the story.

British version of the Maus - The Old Gang get to play with a big slow hull with a bigger turret ring

 

[weNEEDlove]

British version of the Maus - The Old Gang get to play with a big slow hull with a bigger turret ring

More like Tiger 2 with a way better engine and reliability, and less powerful gun.
britain dabbing on the German by making a better heavy tank :v

 

[Seawolf]

British version of the Maus - The Old Gang get to play with a big slow hull with a bigger turret ring

Can The Old Gang do something crazy with the Churchill hull? Pls?

 

[Mark1878]

Can The Old Gang do something crazy with the Churchill hull? Pls?

It's possible - the reason for the Tortoise is still there - an assault tank for fortified positions.

However the TOG were explicitly sidelined in OTL and I can't see that being changed here.

 

[Icedaemon]

The command tanks were normal Valiant IIs but with a mock gun. This provided more space for both radios to communicate between the armoured, artillery and infantry units. The Royal Signals had been very busy teaching the Guards officers the best and most secure methods of using their radios. One of the things that Lieutenant-General O’Connor had suspected was that the Germans had been attempting to intercept British transmissions. Leese had persuaded his senior Royal Signals officer to attempt to listen into Montgomery’s communications. This was to be done without the Umpires attached to Leese’s HQ knowing.

One of the things that the Royal Signals had noticed was the way in which some of the Guards Officers used codewords that weren’t very hard to decipher. Having been sternly warned to use only the approved codes, Leese’s command had practised their communication skills intensively until they were second nature. It had however given the Signals officers an idea. No 1 Special Wireless Section (Type C) from the Canadian Signal Reinforcements Unit, commanded by Lieutenant Cooper, was something of an oddity, and Cooper’s Section had been picked up by someone in Leese’s HQ staff as an ad-hoc ‘friendly-force’ monitoring element.

Unlike most of the Canadian Signals units, Cooper’s men hadn’t gone on the Special Operator’s Training Battalion at Trowbridge, Wiltshire. This involved four weeks of specialised training on German and Italian radio procedures, and methods to detect enemy signals. Instead, Cooper’s section had been practicing their skills listening to British units. This had brought them to the attention of Leese who saw a report that they had intercepted operational security violations. The most egregious violations were a couple of English operators who "mentioned in clear several names of places as well as names of officers up to the rank of Colonel, and described in detail an area defence scheme of which they were a part, giving locations of H.Q. and other security information.”

Leese suspected that just as Montgomery was likely to be trying to tip the scales against Leese’s Command, having a listening ear on the other side’s communications would even the odds even just a little.

Oh dearie dearie me, Perfidious Albion actually having military exercises where both sides attempt to cheat? This will either be a clusterfuck, or a wonderful conjunction of SigInt and tactical development. Possibly both. I do hope this is followed up on.

 

[justinmil22]

If you're not cheating you're not trying

 

[allanpcameron]

3 March 1942. Berlin, Germany.

Two models were on display, with two companies vying to produce the new war-winning panzer that would outclass all and any Soviet and British tanks. The specifications had been produced in November 1941 by Waffen Prüfämter (Weapons Testing Office) 6, (Wa. Prüf. 6), the German organization in charge of tank development.

The new tank was to have a combat weight of between 30-35 tonnes, with 35° sloped 60 mm (2.36 inch) thick frontal armour, and 50° sloped 40mm (1.57 inch) side armour. It was to house the new Rheinmetall’s 7,5cm cannon as main armament. The engine was expected to produce between 650 and 700 metric horsepower enabling speeds of between 4 kph (2.5 mph) in lowest gear and 55 kph (34.2 mph) in top gear, and be able to operate for 5 hours without interruption.

The reason for Daimler-Benz and M.A.N to have to produce this tank was mostly the work of General Heinz Guderian, the commander of the 2nd Panzer Army. After his frightening encounters with the new Soviet T34 and KV1 tanks, he had sent for a commission to come and study the Soviet tanks that had been knocked out, and to talk to the men that had been involved in fighting them to determine what advantages the Soviet tanks possessed over the German vehicles, and what could be incorporated into new German designs.

The Special Armor Investigation Committee was led by Oberst Sebastian Fichtner, head of Wa. Prüf. 6, the German organization in charge of tank development and the team included members of most of the big tank and armour manufacturers.

The commission had arrived at the front on November 18th, 1941. They examined a recent battlefield and met with repair and recovery personnel of the XXIV Panzer Korps, examining several knocked-out T-34s and KV 1s. They noted three design advantages the T-34 possessed over the Panzer III. The first was the sloped armour, which afforded greater protection than flat armour of the same thickness. The second was the suspension; the T-34 had five large roadwheels and no return rollers, giving a smoother ride and greater suspension travel. In addition, its wide tracks gave low ground pressure, ensuring that it did not bog down on soft terrain. The third was the long gun barrel overhanging the front of the tank. The longer barrel allowed better muzzle velocity, but the German tank designers avoided having it overhanging the front of the tank as it could complicate manoeuvring in forests and cities.

General Guderian, in his turn laid out for the commission the issues experienced so far and requested the following: All current panzers should be up-gunned. Any new panzers needed to have wider tracks and lower ground pressure to deal with the terrain. Panzers had to be able to drive cross-country and on unimproved trails in all seasons. A new panzer must have heavier armament, improved armour protection, and higher tactical mobility compared to previous designs. It should also have a more powerful motor and maintain a high power-to-weight ratio. These findings echoed those that had come from North Africa concerning the British Valiant tank. Sebastian Fichtner felt that the VK20 project to replace the Panzers III and IV, which was nearly completed, would be able to be adapted to fit Guderian’s list of needs. However, Fritz Todt ordered him to cancel all efforts on the VK20 project and start afresh on a 30 tonne tank. At the same time Henschel and Porsche had been involved in work on a heavy breakthrough tank but with a very low priority. The breakthrough tank was now given a high priority.

Rheinmetall-Borsig’s new tank cannon, was to be capable of penetrating 140 mm (5.51 in) of armour at 1 km. Originally designed with a barrel length of L/60, or 60 calibers, this turned out to be slightly anemic, so the barrel length was increased to L/70; resulting in being standardized as the 7.5 cm KwK 42 L/70. They had also produced a turret to house the gun, which M.A.N.’s designer team (led by Paul Max Wiebicke) incorporated into their new design. Wiebicke also used a draft of their VK20.02, incorporating sloped armour, so that the work on the VK20 wasn’t completely lost. The turret was placed in the centre of the tank as far back as possible to reduce the length of the barrel overhanging the front of the tank. The crew layout was normal for panzers, though some extra thought went into overhead hatches for the driver and radio operator.

The armour was exactly in line with the specifications, but they had problems with the engine. The planned powerplant was a 650 hp liquid-cooled two-stroke V8 diesel engine being developed at M.A.N.’s Augsburg plant. Despite starting work on it in 1940, development of engine was slow and it became too large and heavy, eventually being abandoned. Instead, M.A.N. went with Maybach’s HL 210 engine; bringing in Maybach to do the work of mounting the engine and designing the cooling system and transmission.

The suspension design was described as an ‘interleaved eight-wheel setup’, as there were eight axles, even though each axle carried more than one wheel. It was a complicated suspension system, but combined with a wide track, it gave the tank a smooth ride and a consistent, low ground pressure. 750 litres of fuel would give the tank 270 km (on road) or 195 km (off road) range. It would be capable of a top speed of 55 kph as was specified, and the weight would likely be about 36 tonnes. To try to make the design even more appealing, Wiebicke had incorporated a system to allow deep wading with ease, making the engine compartment watertight.

Daimler-Benz’s design team decided on a much closer copy of the T-34 than M.A.N.’s design. It retained the Soviet all-round sloping armour, forward mounted turret, and rear-mounted transmission – a feature uncommon in German tanks. Armed with the Rheinmetall 7.5 cm cannon, Daimler opted to go with their own turret design instead of using the one developed by Rheinmetall. Daimler-Benz’s turret had a turret ring diameter of 1600 mm, 50 mm less than that of the Rheinmetall turret used on M.A.N.’s design.

Once again the armour was as specified, and again Daimler-Benz used elements of their work on the VK20 project. The engine and transmission would be a Daimler-Benz MB 507 water-cooled V12 diesel engine, working through a rear-mounted hydraulic-assist transmission and a hydraulic, controlled differential, regenerative steering mechanism. This transmission, developed jointly between Daimler-Benz and Ortlinghaus, incorporated a hydraulic multi-plate clutch, which afforded smooth gear changes and was easy to use. It wasn’t however without its problems.

Daimler-Benz’s suspension was similar to the suspension of the M.A.N. design in that it consisted of four sets of interleaved roadwheels, arranged in three rows, though the suspension itself was leaf springs, which had the advantages of being easy to repair and maintain, and was already familiar to tank crews. Relatively narrow tracks gave the 35 tonne panzer a ground pressure that was just about acceptable.

The range of the Daimler-Benz panzer, carrying only 550 liters of fuel internally, giving it a projected 195 km (on road) and 140 km (off-road) range. It was designed with additional fuel tanks on the rear of the hull that could be jettisoned before going into battle. Top speed was also 56 kph, and the crew would have the usual layout in panzers, though the Daimler-Benz panzer had side hatches in the hull and turret.

At the meeting Adolf Hitler and Albert Speer (Reich Minister for Armaments and Ammunition) both expressed a preference for the Daimler-Benz design. Hitler felt that the Daimler design was superior in almost every way, and particularly liked the fact that it used a diesel engine; he felt this was the way forward in tank design. Although inclined to order the Daimler design there and then, Hitler formed a committee to weigh the advantages of both designs and suggest which should be produced. Oberst Wolfgang Thomale (OKH Inspector of the tank corps) and Robert Eberan von Eberhorst (professor at Dresden Technical University) were appointed to lead the committee, and would begin deliberations in May. There were two main considerations to decide between the two designs. Firstly, large numbers of the panzer would need to be operational by the summer of 1943, meaning that production would have to begin by December 1942. This was the crucial factor, but secondly, to balance the numerical superiority of the Soviets, the German machine had to be of higher quality.

The committee found that Daimler-Benz wouldn’t be able to have their turret design in production by the December deadline. The smaller turret ring meant that they couldn’t fit the Rheinmetall turret without an entire redesign. The M.A.N. design had greater operational range, its suspension gave a better firing platform, the engine was already in production, and the deep wading capability all meant that the committee chose the M.A.N. design unanimously. This decision was communicated to the Chairman of the Panzerkommission, Dr Ferdinand Porche on 11 May, with the name ‘Panther’ first recorded. When informed, Adolf Hitler, still preferring the Daimler-Benz design, conceded that getting the tank into production as quickly as possible, meant that he had to go along with the committee’s recommendation. He did however insist that the frontal armour should be increased from 60mm to 80mm. The next day, M.A.N. were awarded the contract to begin work on the prototypes and prepare for full production beginning in December.


I've taken most of this from here: Please remember that the first Valiants wouldn't have been in action with the Soviets, though it is mentioned that the Valiants in North Africa have been encountered.
VK30.01(D) and VK30.02(M) - Panther Prototypes - Tank Encyclopedia (tanks-encyclopedia.com)

 

[focus9912]

3 March 1942. Berlin, Germany.

Two models were on display, with two companies vying to produce the new war-winning panzer that would outclass all and any Soviet and British tanks. The specifications had been produced in November 1941 by Waffen Prüfämter (Weapons Testing Office) 6, (Wa. Prüf. 6), the German organization in charge of tank development.

The new tank was to have a combat weight of between 30-35 tonnes, with 35° sloped 60 mm (2.36 inch) thick frontal armour, and 50° sloped 40mm (1.57 inch) side armour. It was to house the new Rheinmetall’s 7,5cm cannon as main armament. The engine was expected to produce between 650 and 700 metric horsepower enabling speeds of between 4 kph (2.5 mph) in lowest gear and 55 kph (34.2 mph) in top gear, and be able to operate for 5 hours without interruption.

The reason for Daimler-Benz and M.A.N to have to produce this tank was mostly the work of General Heinz Guderian, the commander of the 2nd Panzer Army. After his frightening encounters with the new Soviet T34 and KV1 tanks, he had sent for a commission to come and study the Soviet tanks that had been knocked out, and to talk to the men that had been involved in fighting them to determine what advantages the Soviet tanks possessed over the German vehicles, and what could be incorporated into new German designs.

The Special Armor Investigation Committee was led by Oberst Sebastian Fichtner, head of Wa. Prüf. 6, the German organization in charge of tank development and the team included members of most of the big tank and armour manufacturers.

The commission had arrived at the front on November 18th, 1941. They examined a recent battlefield and met with repair and recovery personnel of the XXIV Panzer Korps, examining several knocked-out T-34s and KV 1s. They noted three design advantages the T-34 possessed over the Panzer III. The first was the sloped armour, which afforded greater protection than flat armour of the same thickness. The second was the suspension; the T-34 had five large roadwheels and no return rollers, giving a smoother ride and greater suspension travel. In addition, its wide tracks gave low ground pressure, ensuring that it did not bog down on soft terrain. The third was the long gun barrel overhanging the front of the tank. The longer barrel allowed better muzzle velocity, but the German tank designers avoided having it overhanging the front of the tank as it could complicate manoeuvring in forests and cities.

General Guderian, in his turn laid out for the commission the issues experienced so far and requested the following: All current panzers should be up-gunned. Any new panzers needed to have wider tracks and lower ground pressure to deal with the terrain. Panzers had to be able to drive cross-country and on unimproved trails in all seasons. A new panzer must have heavier armament, improved armour protection, and higher tactical mobility compared to previous designs. It should also have a more powerful motor and maintain a high power-to-weight ratio. These findings echoed those that had come from North Africa concerning the British Valiant tank. Sebastian Fichtner felt that the VK20 project to replace the Panzers III and IV, which was nearly completed, would be able to be adapted to fit Guderian’s list of needs. However, Fritz Todt ordered him to cancel all efforts on the VK20 project and start afresh on a 30 tonne tank. At the same time Henschel and Porsche had been involved in work on a heavy breakthrough tank but with a very low priority. The breakthrough tank was now given a high priority.

Rheinmetall-Borsig’s new tank cannon, was to be capable of penetrating 140 mm (5.51 in) of armour at 1 km. Originally designed with a barrel length of L/60, or 60 calibers, this turned out to be slightly anemic, so the barrel length was increased to L/70; resulting in being standardized as the 7.5 cm KwK 42 L/70. They had also produced a turret to house the gun, which M.A.N.’s designer team (led by Paul Max Wiebicke) incorporated into their new design. Wiebicke also used a draft of their VK20.02, incorporating sloped armour, so that the work on the VK20 wasn’t completely lost. The turret was placed in the centre of the tank as far back as possible to reduce the length of the barrel overhanging the front of the tank. The crew layout was normal for panzers, though some extra thought went into overhead hatches for the driver and radio operator.

The armour was exactly in line with the specifications, but they had problems with the engine. The planned powerplant was a 650 hp liquid-cooled two-stroke V8 diesel engine being developed at M.A.N.’s Augsburg plant. Despite starting work on it in 1940, development of engine was slow and it became too large and heavy, eventually being abandoned. Instead, M.A.N. went with Maybach’s HL 210 engine; bringing in Maybach to do the work of mounting the engine and designing the cooling system and transmission.

The suspension design was described as an ‘interleaved eight-wheel setup’, as there were eight axles, even though each axle carried more than one wheel. It was a complicated suspension system, but combined with a wide track, it gave the tank a smooth ride and a consistent, low ground pressure. 750 litres of fuel would give the tank 270 km (on road) or 195 km (off road) range. It would be capable of a top speed of 55 kph as was specified, and the weight would likely be about 36 tonnes. To try to make the design even more appealing, Wiebicke had incorporated a system to allow deep wading with ease, making the engine compartment watertight.

Daimler-Benz’s design team decided on a much closer copy of the T-34 than M.A.N.’s design. It retained the Soviet all-round sloping armour, forward mounted turret, and rear-mounted transmission – a feature uncommon in German tanks. Armed with the Rheinmetall 7.5 cm cannon, Daimler opted to go with their own turret design instead of using the one developed by Rheinmetall. Daimler-Benz’s turret had a turret ring diameter of 1600 mm, 50 mm less than that of the Rheinmetall turret used on M.A.N.’s design.

Once again the armour was as specified, and again Daimler-Benz used elements of their work on the VK20 project. The engine and transmission would be a Daimler-Benz MB 507 water-cooled V12 diesel engine, working through a rear-mounted hydraulic-assist transmission and a hydraulic, controlled differential, regenerative steering mechanism. This transmission, developed jointly between Daimler-Benz and Ortlinghaus, incorporated a hydraulic multi-plate clutch, which afforded smooth gear changes and was easy to use. It wasn’t however without its problems.

Daimler-Benz’s suspension was similar to the suspension of the M.A.N. design in that it consisted of four sets of interleaved roadwheels, arranged in three rows, though the suspension itself was leaf springs, which had the advantages of being easy to repair and maintain, and was already familiar to tank crews. Relatively narrow tracks gave the 35 tonne panzer a ground pressure that was just about acceptable.

The range of the Daimler-Benz panzer, carrying only 550 liters of fuel internally, giving it a projected 195 km (on road) and 140 km (off-road) range. It was designed with additional fuel tanks on the rear of the hull that could be jettisoned before going into battle. Top speed was also 56 kph, and the crew would have the usual layout in panzers, though the Daimler-Benz panzer had side hatches in the hull and turret.

At the meeting Adolf Hitler and Albert Speer (Reich Minister for Armaments and Ammunition) both expressed a preference for the Daimler-Benz design. Hitler felt that the Daimler design was superior in almost every way, and particularly liked the fact that it used a diesel engine; he felt this was the way forward in tank design. Although inclined to order the Daimler design there and then, Hitler formed a committee to weigh the advantages of both designs and suggest which should be produced. Oberst Wolfgang Thomale (OKH Inspector of the tank corps) and Robert Eberan von Eberhorst (professor at Dresden Technical University) were appointed to lead the committee, and would begin deliberations in May. There were two main considerations to decide between the two designs. Firstly, large numbers of the panzer would need to be operational by the summer of 1943, meaning that production would have to begin by December 1942. This was the crucial factor, but secondly, to balance the numerical superiority of the Soviets, the German machine had to be of higher quality.

The committee found that Daimler-Benz wouldn’t be able to have their turret design in production by the December deadline. The smaller turret ring meant that they couldn’t fit the Rheinmetall turret without an entire redesign. The M.A.N. design had greater operational range, its suspension gave a better firing platform, the engine was already in production, and the deep wading capability all meant that the committee chose the M.A.N. design unanimously. This decision was communicated to the Chairman of the Panzerkommission, Dr Ferdinand Porche on 11 May, with the name ‘Panther’ first recorded. When informed, Adolf Hitler, still preferring the Daimler-Benz design, conceded that getting the tank into production as quickly as possible, meant that he had to go along with the committee’s recommendation. He did however insist that the frontal armour should be increased from 60mm to 80mm. The next day, M.A.N. were awarded the contract to begin work on the prototypes and prepare for full production beginning in December.


I've taken most of this from here: Please remember that the first Valiants wouldn't have been in action with the Soviets, though it is mentioned that the Valiants in North Africa have been encountered.
VK30.01(D) and VK30.02(M) - Panther Prototypes - Tank Encyclopedia (tanks-encyclopedia.com)

So far, it seems to be for the most part, the Germans is currently remain close to the OTL development, since there's isn't a catalyst for a need to change the design due to the perceived incompetence of the Italians in North Africa. What could be changed by this point is perhaps a more rushed and flawed deployment of the tanks due to a increasingly stalled offensive in the East, in response, instead of sorting out it teething problem by checking really the flaws in terms of reliability of the tanks, immediately (blindly) implementing untested upgrades to the tank.

P/s: Perhaps by this point, could the Germans also asked Daimler to immediately help M.A.N in the production and testing of the tanks?

 

[allanpcameron]

So far, it seems to be for the most part, the Germans is currently remain close to the OTL development,

Exactly same as OTL.
Allan

 

[Ramontxo]

Sorry but the slopes in the first tank (35 front and 50 upper sides) seem wrong. Are you sure you havent mixed them?

 

[vizzer]

Sorry but the slopes in the first tank (35 front and 50 upper sides) seem wrong. Are you sure you havent mixed them?

If the slope is from the horizontal then 35 front would give thicker protection than 50, if it's from the vertical it would be the other way around.

 

[Ramontxo]

If the slope is from the horizontal then 35 front would give thicker protection than 50, if it's from the vertical it would be the other way around.

That is a mistake I had made before thanks

 

[weNEEDlove]

i know the victor is ~100mm(4inch) thick frontally. But is that Line of Sight thickness or plate thickness allanpcameron?

 

[CMDBob]

And so the Panther begins to take shape... Interesting that it's got an 80mm front plate, not the 100mm that the OTL Panther had, but that tracks with the development at this point (and there's still time for it to get the 100mm front, wasn't increased until May 42 iirc).
Still, the British have the Victor coming, which should be a good match, all things considered. With the right gun, anyway.

 

[kelgar04]

Good to see OTL in Germany is still happening which means the Victor will be something of a shock also the Austrian Corporals preference here is a handicap as well.

 

[weNEEDlove]

And so the Panther begins to take shape... Interesting that it's got an 80mm front plate, not the 100mm that the OTL Panther had, but that tracks with the development at this point (and there's still time for it to get the 100mm front, wasn't increased until May 42 iirc).
Still, the British have the Victor coming, which should be a good match, all things considered. With the right gun, anyway.

?? The panther never had a 100mm. At most it’s have a “by the factory” 85mm of RHA.

 

[MattII]

When you say 'two models were on display' @allanpcameron , do you mean paper drawings? Wooden mockups? Or mild-steel prototypes?

 

[brazen]

When you say 'two models were on display' @allanpcameron , do you mean paper drawings? Wooden mockups? Or mild-steel prototypes?

Full size mock up made from Bavarian Bergkase, time are hard so they cant spare the steel.

Add some pumpernickel and a beer and you can make the unwanted prototype disappear over lunch.