Social democratic Russia

Umbral · Oct 1, 2015

Is it possible to have Russia develop into something similar to the Scandinavian social democracies? I.e. the biggest Nordic Model nation on earth?

I realize this is kind of pushing up against the 1900 limit because very early PoDs would probably butterfly the Nordic Model totally, but a PoD after 1900 would probably leave too little time. The revolution would be less than 17 years away, etc.

The Undead Martyr · Oct 1, 2015

I think you need a pod waaayyyy back in the Renaissance to get this. Russas autocratic character owes a lot to the formation of Russia under the Tzars- butterfly Ivan the Terrible rise somehow and/or force a weaker monarchy which has to grant ckncessions. Or else have a "Russian Revolution" in place of the French but that takes a strong merchsnt community agitating for political participation....
It really comes down to changing Russia to favor trade and the cities. It arguably isn't Russia anymore then.

Umbral · Oct 1, 2015

If you go back that far, the Kings of Sweden were pretty autocratic too. And I'm not sure if the Dames were significantly better. Also, Finland was part of Russia for a long time and still managed to establish a system owing more to its Scandinavian neighbours than Russias autocracy.

I suppose its more about how Russia could be made to follow a trajectory out of the autocratic model as its neighbours did.

Faeelin · Oct 1, 2015

The Russian problem is that democracy only works with people with a tradition of self-rule, like South Koreans, Indians, or Mexicans.

(This is going to cue people saying that those nations aren't democracies).

Socrates · Oct 1, 2015

Faeelin said:
The Russian problem is that democracy only works with people with a tradition of self-rule, like South Koreans, Indians, or Mexicans.

(This is going to cue people saying that those nations aren't democracies).

That must be why Japan is such a totalitarian state.

Superman · Oct 1, 2015

Faeelin said:
The Russian problem is that democracy only works with people with a tradition of self-rule, like South Koreans, Indians, or Mexicans.

(This is going to cue people saying that those nations aren't democracies).

...is that a joke? I can't tell.

Faeelin · Oct 1, 2015

Socrates said:
That must be why Japan is such a totalitarian state.

Obviously I am being sarcastic. The 1917 election had tens of millions of people turn out to vote.

Turquoise Blue · Oct 1, 2015

Wasn't Russia a quite agrarian and "frontier" country, what with the great swathes of Siberia?

That's honestly the main block I find. No significantly influential industrial working-class.

Sian · Oct 1, 2015

Turquoise Blue said:
Wasn't Russia a quite agrarian and "frontier" country, what with the great swathes of Siberia?

That's honestly the main block I find. No significantly influential industrial working-class.

yet it was the contineous strikes by the industrial working class in Russia, Argitators fishing in their rough waters, and lack of understanding from the ruling classes that at the end of it provoked the communist uprising.

The industrial working-class was just as lacking in influence in the Nordic countries, with the conservative old guard or the farmers party ruling, in their early democracies.

GeographyDude · Oct 1, 2015

Or, the model of England who after the French revolution decided it was better to democratise in orderly fashion. relatively late, I think in 1832(?)

And the Russian Court spoke French and was very influenced by the French Court.

XanXar · Oct 1, 2015

Alexander II doesn't die an assassination combined with his first son not dying either, the one actually raised to be Tsar.
After that you have a much more liberal Russia, although Social Democratic is very big stretch.

Strategos' Risk · Oct 1, 2015

Japan being a virtual one party state is kinda funny, though. Parties-wise aren't they basically Mexico? They even have organized crime cartels as a normal and accepted part of civil society, except theirs are far more respectable.

Socrates · Oct 1, 2015

Apologies to Faelin for not picking up on his (or her?) sarcasm - it's been a long week.

For what it's worth, I think you a social democratic Russia is very possible. Russia has always been more on the communitarian of the collective-individualist spectrum, so they would tend that way if they ever got proper democracy.

Unless you want to go super early with a POD, you probably need it to be brought in from above, however. Maybe get an Anglophile or Francophile Tsar who wants to bring in some of their institutions at home. It would be helpful to have a genuinely federal system to allow it to embed local roots.

Booster Gold · Oct 1, 2015

The Scandinavian countries are tiny population wise, that probably makes things easier than they would be in Russia. Monkeyspheres and all that.

Eluvatar · Oct 1, 2015

I'd argue it's possible with a PoD as late as 1917 (i.e. Lenin fails to get to Russia).

Fredrick II Barbarossa · Oct 1, 2015

Strategos' Risk said:
Japan being a virtual one party state is kinda funny, though. Parties-wise aren't they basically Mexico? They even have organized crime cartels as a normal and accepted part of civil society, except theirs are far more respectable.

umm maybe ten years ago today japanese authorities are cracking down on yakuzas and with recent laws and stuff their power has greatly diminished gone are the 80s and 90s. As for parties no... the reason LDP is in power is because their opponents are shit at running government as that recent showing in 2010 I think showed everyone.

Not only that but in japan family, clan, and connections as well as seniority and influence matter a lot and well the LDP already has its roots within the Japanese elites and is an established party so dislodging it is difficult.

BBadolato · Oct 1, 2015

Your best bet maybe to either have the Kievan Rus survive, or butterfly away Ivan IV (the Terrible) or make it so he either has a better childhood or Anastasia his first wife survives.