Terra Preta de Maya

[rewster]

Terra Preta is an anthropogenic carbon-rich soil found throughout the Amazon Basin. It is believed to have supported a large population of native Amazonians, as witnessed and recorded by the Spanish explorer Francisco de Orellana.
It is now known to be a very stable and very fertile soil, which is not typical for tropical climates.
In OTL, the practice of creating it didn't really get beyond the Amazon River as far as I know.
What if, at some point in the last 2000 years, it had spread gradually north, perhaps to the Orinoco area first, then into Columbia, up into Central America and finally to the Yucatan?
Could this have happened?
What effects would it have when it finally reached the cities of the Maya?
Is it possible that (a suitably butterfly infested) Maya would be able to survive relatively intact rather than suffering a post-Classic collapse in the southern lowlands?

 

[9 Fanged Hummingbird]

Yeah, the Classic Era might actually continue as a result. Slash-and-burn farming would basically cease to exist as terra-preta fields take their place, the deforestation and soil erosion would not happen as a result, and some of the vicious wars in the Late Classic may have been a result of famine. With less wars, famine, and such the people would probably not leave the lowland cities like Caracol and Tikal en masse.

Would be very interesting to see what happens when the Aztecs, and later, the Spanish come across a plethora of huge Mayan states. Would be interesting to see what happens even before that.

 

[rewster]

Would be very interesting to see what happens when the Aztecs, and later, the Spanish come across a plethora of huge Mayan states. Would be interesting to see what happens even before that.

That is of course, if the Aztecs come to power and aren't butterflied away, and the Spanish are still the ones to do the exploring.

 

[9 Fanged Hummingbird]

That is of course, if the Aztecs come to power and aren't butterflied away, and the Spanish are still the ones to do the exploring.

The Spanish coming is inevitable, I doubt anything between the Collapse (roughly 900's-1000 AD) and 1492 will affect Europe. And unless Tikal goes on to take all of the Maya groups under one hegemony I don't think they will influence Western Mexico too much.

 

[Tocomocho]

With better farming, I wouldn't be surprised if it is the Mayas who invade the Toltecs and force them to ban human sacrifice*, instead of the exact opposite happening. As a result, no extended sacrifice culture in Central Mexico when the Europeans show up.

*If human sacrifice was really adopted by the Mayas as a result of Toltec influence, which modern evidence seems to deny.

 

[9 Fanged Hummingbird]

With better farming, I wouldn't be surprised if it is the Mayas who invade the Toltecs and force them to ban human sacrifice*, instead of the exact opposite happening. As a result, no extended sacrifice culture in Central Mexico when the Europeans show up.

*If human sacrifice was really adopted by the Mayas as a result of Toltec influence, which modern evidence seems to deny.

I think it's that the Toltec influence had the post-Classic Maya adopt certain methods of sacrifice and do it more often. The Mayans typically sacrificed only captured royalty and nobility and it was usually by simple decapitation, whereas the kind of large scale heart-ripping thing done in Chichen Itza and similar places was more typical of Central Mexico.

 

[Atom]

Yeah, the Classic Era might actually continue as a result. Slash-and-burn farming would basically cease to exist as terra-preta fields take their place, the deforestation and soil erosion would not happen as a result, and some of the vicious wars in the Late Classic may have been a result of famine. With less wars, famine, and such the people would probably not leave the lowland cities like Caracol and Tikal en masse.

But the fundamental instability of the Yucatec water supply would still be a problem, and may lead to as much famine, if only slightly later on.

Would be very interesting to see what happens when the Aztecs, and later, the Spanish come across a plethora of huge Mayan states. Would be interesting to see what happens even before that.

They may be able to resist far longer against the spanish then they did on OTL. The Mayas were only completely conquered in the mid-1600s, I believe. I can't see them winning, unless the Spanish eventually become disinterested.

 

[mishery]

Would this up the native population density? This would make a difference, might lead later to a much stronger native identity and more political clout.

 

[Hnau]

This is a cool graphic, I thought it was applicable to the discussion.

 

[rewster]

But the fundamental instability of the Yucatec water supply would still be a problem, and may lead to as much famine, if only slightly later on.

How much do we really know about the cause of the Post-Classic decline though? This article seems to imply that they may have had the water supply problem somewhat in hand. But it also says they did slash and burn, which only gives you 3-5 years of fertility. Slash and char (creating Terra Preta) would have given them a much more stable soil, and that means they could eventually have much more crop land available, because instead of having to let overworked land lie fallow and regrow forest for 25 years or so, they'd basically have land they could use permanently, and eventually they'd only need to leave enough forest to keep supplying charcoal to the surrounding crop land. Not to mention they could grow the forests faster by letting them spring up on Terra Preta soil.

 

[Atom]

The point about water is that since the water supply was so untsable and reliant on man to make sure it continued it would only require a few large wars for it to be fundamentally weakened causing large scale famine.

 

[9 Fanged Hummingbird]

But the fundamental instability of the Yucatec water supply would still be a problem, and may lead to as much famine, if only slightly later on.


They may be able to resist far longer against the spanish then they did on OTL. The Mayas were only completely conquered in the mid-1600s, I believe. I can't see them winning, unless the Spanish eventually become disinterested.

To be exact the last Maya polity, Tah Itza (Tayasal) fell in 1697, though mostly because it was ignored, being rather small. But even the other numerous, slightly larger kingdoms gave Cortez a hard time.

 

[tormsen]

I suspect if the Maya states were larger and more powerful the Spaniards would put more effort into it.