The eagle's left head

[Xenophonte]

Then, the communes have begun showing their teeth on the matter of the subvertio generalis.

Shocking development! The best thing for the Lascarids now would be to offer peace only to the Venetians and ask only for for Crete. Would the Venetians conclude a separate peace with the Lascarids though?

I think that it would be even more shocking for the Sicilians and particularly for the comunes representatives that may be perceived as at least partially responsible of the territorial losses and the many casualties on them but especially from Alexandros' fall in battle due to being refused the necessary funds... Even more if the generalized popular mourning for their fallen Basileus would turn in patriotic furor to 'save their nation' and take revenge on Venice...

Theodoros II is barely two years old, and old Alexios is no longer around, so it's going to be run by Grandma Adrienne and the basilissa Agnes.
His eldest sister, though still a teenager, has just been married into a powerful family, and I have trouble seeing her a perfect image of loyalty for the next fifteen years of regency. Byzantine tradition had plenty of ambitious princesses if I'm not mistaken.

Indeed, but if the Dowager Basilissa Agnes Doukas, would at least be so political skilled as her ancestors, she would both be aware from the potential danger and from the dire situation, at what his late husband left her and their son. So, I'd suppose that she would perhaps use the shock that the news from Alexandros demise, in both the population and bigger aristocratic and Merchants families and use the likely generalized mourning shows of loyalty for to incite the times equivalent to 'rally 'round the flag effect' and reaffirm both her regency and to compromise/involucre emotionally and politically in supporting and to start to transfer their loyalty and love from Alexandros to his son, Theodoros...

 

[Vince]

Crap. Reload the save!

 

[Avrorrange]

Adrienne and Gryphon Maniakes are still teenagers.

This is a potentially dangerous situation if Adrienne and the Gryphons get ideas about the throne. With their internal network, they are certainly going to be the new Basileus if something bad were to befall young Theodore II. At the same time however, if they do remain loyal, it would provide a strong support network to Theodore II. If a wannabe Michael IX —someone without any relations to the previous emperor— were to declare himself the Basileus, you sure as hell won’t see a lack of opposition from the Gryphons.

 

[Avrorrange]

I think that it would be even more shocking for the Sicilians and particularly for the comunes representatives that may be perceived as at least partially responsible of the territorial losses and the many casualties on them but especially from Alexandros' fall in battle due to being refused the necessary funds... Even more if the generalized popular mourning for their fallen Basileus would turn in patriotic furor to 'save their nation' and take revenge on Venice...

Indeed, but if the Dowager Basilissa Agnes Doukas, would at least be so political skilled as her ancestors, she would both be aware from the potential danger and from the dire situation, at what his late husband left her and their son. So, I'd suppose that she would perhaps use the shock that the news from Alexandros demise, in both the population and bigger aristocratic and Merchants families and use the likely generalized mourning shows of loyalty for to incite the times equivalent to 'rally 'round the flag effect' and reaffirm both her regency and to compromise/involucre emotionally and politically in supporting and to start to transfer their loyalty and love from Alexandros to his son, Theodoros...

Which ancestor? The Iron King?

 

[galileo-034]

On Ioannis GM, as things stand, he is the heir presumptive of the Lascarid realm by virtue of his marriage. Alexandros' rushing to see the wedding concluded was very much understandable in this regard. Without his in person sanction, Ioannis place in the line of succession could have been seriously disputed and threatened, which in turn would have made the regency unstable. This gives Agnes a few years of peace, but it all depends on how much loyal Ioannis and Adrienne Jr are.

Then, Agnes won't be alone. Don't forget Grandma Adrienne, the family's matriarch.
She has been around for almost fifty years now. As Theodore I's widow, she is probably the most experienced person of stature in the Lascarid empire, and in the time since Agnes arrived in Syracuse, I'm sure she would have tutored Agnes in the way of Lascarid politics. With Theodore and Alexandros away on campaign, they surely spent a lot of time together.
She is into her seventies, but if she lives as long as, say, Eleanor of Aquitaine, she might be around for ten more years.

 

[galileo-034]

A pity those horses could not find their way to Syracuse though...

 

[Avrorrange]

@Lascaris
What was young Adrienne’s dowry? Cash? Lands? Enough to make the Gryphons really powerful?If you want the dynatoi not to be formed, the Lascarids better watch out what they give their in laws. At the same time, they probably might not have a lot of choice due to prestige reasons. A royal bride necessitates a royal dowry.

 

[Avrorrange]

On Ioannis GM, as things stand, he is the heir presumptive of the Lascarid realm by virtue of his marriage. Alexandros' rushing to see the wedding concluded was very much understandable in this regard. Without his in person sanction, Ioannis place in the line of succession could have been seriously disputed and threatened, which in turn would have made the regency unstable. This gives Agnes a few years of peace, but it all depends on how much loyal Ioannis and Adrienne Jr are.

Then, Agnes won't be alone. Don't forget Grandma Adrienne, the family's matriarch.
She has been around for almost fifty years now. As Theodore I's widow, she is probably the most experienced person of stature in the Lascarid empire, and in the time since Agnes arrived in Syracuse, I'm sure she would have tutored Agnes in the way of Lascarid politics. With Theodore and Alexandros away on campaign, they surely spent a lot of time together.
She is into her seventies, but if she lives as long as, say, Eleanor of Aquitaine, she might be around for ten more years.

Adrienne is.Considering the fact that Alexandros know that he’s dying, I hope that he had sense to create a will where the formal order of succession Is articulated, with the sisters and their heirs being the heir after Theodoros II’s by order of primogeniture should Theodoros II’s line fail. I have a feeling that there’s high chance of that happening given the author probably created the domestic match for a reason.

Now, who would the other sisters get married to?

 

[galileo-034]

Primogeniture? Not sure that was quite an established rule in the Byzantine tradition of politics. For the French born Agnes, or the formerly Norman parts of the Lascarid realm, sure, but I believe that primogeniture was strong in the Byzantine tradition the Despotate is largely modelled from.
Look at what happened at Ioannis IV Lascaris. The biggest difficulty of the coming fifteen years will be to avoid Theodoros II avoid the fate of Ioannis IV.
After all, it's not too implausible many would prefer a stronger, adult ruler like Ioannis GM at the helm than a toddler, especially in a time of war. And in the Byzantine fashion, they might also try to impose him on Agnes as co-emperor.
That's basically a conflict between two conceptions of power that are meeting in the Lascarid Empire, and Agnes will need her daughter and her husband's loyalty if she wants to keep her son secure on the throne.

 

[Avrorrange]

Primogeniture? Not sure that was quite an established rule in the Byzantine tradition of politics. For the French born Agnes, or the formerly Norman parts of the Lascarid realm, sure, but I believe that primogeniture was strong in the Byzantine tradition the Despotate is largely modelled from.
Look at what happened at Ioannis IV Lascaris. The biggest difficulty of the coming fifteen years will be to avoid Theodoros II avoid the fate of Ioannis IV.
After all, it's not too implausible many would prefer a stronger, adult ruler like Ioannis GM at the helm than a toddler, especially in a time of war. And in the Byzantine fashion, they might also try to impose him on Agnes as co-emperor.
That's basically a conflict between two conceptions of power that are meeting in the Lascarid Empire, and Agnes will need her daughter and her husband's loyalty if she wants to keep her son secure on the throne.

Primogeniture is a well established rule in the SICILIAN tradition of politics.That the Lascarids are ruling Sicily to begin with is entirely due to blood relations to Frederick II. It is unthinkable for a totally unrelated noble to attempt a powergrab.They aren’t exactly governing with Byzantine tradition.In the latest chapter for example, they had consult with town representatives in the parliament to get taxes. Something that wasn’t done in the actual empire except through the senate, which was a body comprised of aristocrats in the capital instead of town representatives from the provinces.As noted previously, this empire is basically the Norman Kingdom larping as the ERE.

 

[galileo-034]

Entirely ? As far as I remember, the foundation of the Despotate had more to do with an opportunistic move by Alexandros I, who happened to be nearby with a couple galleys and Byzantine marines. He was not invited nor offered the crown of Sicily.
He did build the Despotate administration and implemented the pronoia system on a blank page, taking advantage, not reusing the old Norman-Hohenstaufen system. The parliaments is the only western elements that made it through, but it's a body that represents only the urban elites of the Empire, the mercantile aristocracy of the communes. The relations between the Church, that is the Basilian controlled church, with the temporal power is structurally byzantine in outlook (ie the church is a loyal servant to the Basileus, not the other way around as the Pope would have you believe).
But more critically, the military-bureaucratic aristocracy of the Lascarid Empire is essentially raised, grown, schooled in the Byzantine/Old Lascarid way. And these are the people who will matter in how things will go during the Regency, not the communes.

 

[X Oristos]

Like the Spanish Inquisition, one does not expect Lascaris' plot twists !

Crete is basically conquered, and though Agnes and Adrienne Sr might be flexible on Methone and Euboea, they cannot really abandon Rhodes, Samos and all the other islands they just lost.

It's going to be a very eventful regency.

The Venetians are winning but it is being a pyrrhic victory at best. They cannot let go of Crete as long as Candia stands. Nor can they exchange Crete for Samos and Ikaria - Rhodes goes to the Hospitallers. Even if they get Chios, Crete plays an important role in the venetian trade network. The Regents will find it difficult to throw Kallergis under the proverbial bus, especially since Alexandros died to liberate Crete and the greek half of the realm has an ideology based on reversing the 1204 frankish rule.

At the same time, Rallis have more than enough men to lead a host against Euboea and if the Venetians want to protect their valuable base they will have to keep a squadron there at all times. At the same time, the bill is a large one and it is not as if Ikaria, Samos and Kos are worth the expenditure. John V was impoverised as the Savoyards clearly saw in Constantinople. Lusignan also cannot keep paying his troops for any long period of time - and he cannot just plunder Rhodes that belongs to his allies. The Venetians must be covering the expenses of John and Peter. On top of that, they have launched bigger fleets than OTL Chioggia. So the cost is pretty high.

Both sides are bleeding and the Sicilians are in the back foot. However, they are still in a stronger strategic position than the Venetians. But even so, if political instability follows Alexandros' death, they might have lost their will to fight. A truce might take place, but it will be a very short one and the side that recovers first will attack. Or the Venetians attack Otranto and Corfu to realize their centuries-old dream. Such move would rile up the Sicilians though. Or Alexandros Philanthropenos continues the war on his own - not perhaps the most prudent policy but he has the means.

 

[Avrorrange]

Like the Spanish Inquisition, one does not expect Lascaris' plot twists !


The Venetians are winning but it is being a pyrrhic victory at best. They cannot let go of Crete as long as Candia stands. Nor can they exchange Crete for Samos and Ikaria - Rhodes goes to the Hospitallers. Even if they get Chios, Crete plays an important role in the venetian trade network. The Regents will find it difficult to throw Kallergis under the proverbial bus, especially since Alexandros died to liberate Crete and the greek half of the realm has an ideology based on reversing the 1204 frankish rule.

At the same time, Rallis have more than enough men to lead a host against Euboea and if the Venetians want to protect their valuable base they will have to keep a squadron there at all times. At the same time, the bill is a large one and it is not as if Ikaria, Samos and Kos are worth the expenditure. John V was impoverised as the Savoyards clearly saw in Constantinople. Lusignan also cannot keep paying his troops for any long period of time - and he cannot just plunder Rhodes that belongs to his allies. The Venetians must be covering the expenses of John and Peter. On top of that, they have launched bigger fleets than OTL Chioggia. So the cost is pretty high.

Both sides are bleeding and the Sicilians are in the back foot. However, they are still in a stronger strategic position than the Venetians. But even so, if political instability follows Alexandros' death, they might have lost their will to fight. A truce might take place, but it will be a very short one and the side that recovers first will attack. Or the Venetians attack Otranto and Corfu to realize their centuries-old dream. Such move would rile up the Sicilians though. Or Alexandros Philanthropenos continues the war on his own - not perhaps the most prudent policy but he has the means.

That is assuming the regents just agree to a peace right now.The main issue with the war until now had more to do with the empire’s population not willing to pay for the war internally and the threat of implosion. Handwaving away the empire’s internal politics, the empire outguns Venice and its’ midget allies in terms of population and resources. The Empire had gained most of the island of Crete while Venetian allies gained a small island or two. The important ones like Chios, Corfu etc all held firm.As I’ve noted before during the first campaign to capture Rhodes, whether you control Rhodes is unimportant. The knights cannot hold it in a pure 1 v 1 war between the empire and the knights. What’s important is to outright defeat the bigger powers backing them. If you can outfight Venice to the point where they had to give up Crete, the Hospitallers and Cyprus could easily be dealt with.

How they proceed with the war depends on the domestic reaction within the empire.Are the people galvanised with the death of the emperor to actually throw their full support behind the war, with those who refuse to endorse the taxes seen as traitors?Or are the vultures within the empire plotting to rise up?If the reaction is the former, then continuing the war is a must, given the Venetians will almost certainly try to offer an unfavourable peace with the death of Alexandros II, and the regents would risk getting overthrown if they sign such a peace.

 

[Quinkana]

Or the Venetians attack Otranto and Corfu to realize their centuries-old dream. Such move would rile up the Sicilians though.

I hope this is what that will happen: the Venetians piss off the parliament enough by attempting to take over Corfu or an attack on Messina or the other trade oriented cities that they go for the subvertio Generalis and attempt to crush the Venetians.

 

[galileo-034]

Both sides are bleeding and the Sicilians are in the back foot. However, they are still in a stronger strategic position than the Venetians. But even so, if political instability follows Alexandros' death, they might have lost their will to fight. A truce might take place, but it will be a very short one and the side that recovers first will attack. Or the Venetians attack Otranto and Corfu to realize their centuries-old dream. Such move would rile up the Sicilians though. Or Alexandros Philanthropenos continues the war on his own - not perhaps the most prudent policy but he has the means.

Since we used some 17th century analogies here before, one would note Anne of Austria, regent for a barely five years old Louis XIV, kept France in the war against Spain in spite of the Fronde shaking the French throne to its core.
If Anne and Mazarin's France could pull this one off, why not the Lascarid Empire?

 

[Avrorrange]

Entirely ? As far as I remember, the foundation of the Despotate had more to do with an opportunistic move by Alexandros I, who happened to be nearby with a couple galleys and Byzantine marines. He was not invited nor offered the crown of Sicily.
He did build the Despotate administration and implemented the pronoia system on a blank page, taking advantage, not reusing the old Norman-Hohenstaufen system. The parliaments is the only western elements that made it through, but it's a body that represents only the urban elites of the Empire, the mercantile aristocracy of the communes. The relations between the Church, that is the Basilian controlled church, with the temporal power is structurally byzantine in outlook (ie the church is a loyal servant to the Basileus, not the other way around as the Pope would have you believe).
But more critically, the military-bureaucratic aristocracy of the Lascarid Empire is essentially raised, grown, schooled in the Byzantine/Old Lascarid way. And these are the people who will matter in how things will go during the Regency, not the communes.

The communes provide the armies as well as shown in the earlier battles. As of now, they are probably the ones that provides most of the navy.Similarly, it’s also shown that many of the Norman knights who pre-date the Alexandrian takeover actually transferred their services to Alexandros and his heirs. They mainly got rid of the lords who were above baron level it seems.I also have to disagree with the notion that the Lascarids weren’t reusing the Norman system that was in place. How did a bunch of soldiers who were too busy fighting the war find people to collect taxes etc except for using the existing bureaucracy? The reason why towns could refuse paying taxes is an indication of this. In addition, Alexandros deliberately made the power of these new aristocrats small by giving them small parcels of land. With time, they will probably become big, but the current Lascarids seemed to have done quite a lot to keep them small. The actual big ones seemed to be the few remaining Latin Sicilian nobles like the Gryphons who saw where the wind blew and transferred their services to the Lascarids early on or the Philanthropenos clan. One final point is that many of the Greek settlers are actually Lascarid loyalists who suffered harshly as a result of remaining loyal to the Lascarids and by the usurpers’ policies. The Latin ideology of blood claims probably appealed far more to these refugees than the old ‘Roman’ ways.It helps explain why the Palaiologos who caused their misfortune are ‘evil’.

 

[Xenophonte]

A pity those horses could not find their way to Syracuse though...

Not yet...

 

[Nuraghe]

Not yet...

Honestly, with what I am about to say, I will probably make numerous enemies, but I would prefer that those horses remain where they are, because it would mean avoiding the death and total destruction of the beautiful lagoon city, by Greek fanatics hostile to it ( since in the Hellenic regions of possessions of Syracuse, the ideology that is most popular is to avenge 1204 ( conveniently forgetting that this tragedy did not happen in a vacuum, and that it was not exclusively due to the " Franks/Latins ", rather it was the fruit of a century of hostility, xenophobia, violence and denigrating propaganda on both sides involved, profound internal weakness in the state which culminated in a tremendously perfect mix, therefore it would be more appropriate to say that the blame should be distributed almost equally, but I doubt that such a thought will gather consensus ) therefore if a destruction of the Serenissima ( understood as a city ) actually occurs it will be the time I stop reading this TL ( so far excellent, even if it was time for the Lascarides to have a real moment of " crisis ", after 80 very " lucky " years, as it will be extremely interesting to see how they survive this delicate regency )

 

[Xenophonte]

On the iconic horse thing, at least in my perspective, even if highly symbolic, I don't think that their eventual fate, would ultimately linked to any kind of 'ideology' on the part of the Syracuse rulers.
It would rather, if anything, it'd be a war spoil, and a consequence from both the Venetians rulers themselves and would be also, one of the possible consequences on, at least, some scenarios that'd be safe to guess that may branch from the present one.

 

[Alkmaion]

Shocking and unexpected development! I suppose that G. Maniakes would either ruling in stead of his new wife or assuming the regency...

Not really. It was all in the cards @Laskaris dealt us before. A hothead, undiplomatic...too much in love with a cerain image, and pressured by the images of his father and uncle...