The Effects of the Roman Industrial Revolution on Christianity

[Simeon The Great]

Christianity has historically been a religion mostly associated with the cities, while folk customs having pagan origins persisted in the villages, and the word "paganus" for a pagan comes from the word "pagus" for a village. Only with the emergence of Lutheranism in the 16th century did the idea of traditional rural piety arise. This is the case even in European Christian countries where, for one reason or another, urban culture does not develop - according to Mark Weber, the traditional class in Europe that was most Christianized were the craftsmen, and in my native Bulgaria it was the craftsmen sometimes during the service to honor the patron saint, no animal was sacrificed - a practice contrary to the Christian canon. In the heyday of the Roman Empire, the state was technologically fully ready for the Industrial Revolution, and the only reasons for this not to happen were slavery and the crisis of the 3rd century. I want to ask if a Roman Industrial Revolution took place at the same time as Christianity spread most rapidly in the Mediterranean, how much faster would the conversion of the empire have been in the presence of large masses of people torn from their pagan religious roots, adopted a new and then unrelated religion? With the strengthening of the Empire by Industrialization and the preservation and strengthening of the single imperial space, except that the Pope would be the head of the Church, and the East-West schism will be avoided, what would be the main dogmas of Christianity compared to those in the OTL? How would the higher education of the population of the Roman Empire compared to OTL affect the emergence of the various splits and heresies in Christianity - I personally think that monophysitism, for which Christ is only a god, devoid of human nature, would not have spread , while a greater spread of Iconoclasm is possible, but I want other opinions? Will other autocephalous churches appear besides those in the Pentarchy? Would the majority of imperial inhabitants, who gave up their pagan heritage first because of urbanization and then because of Christianization in the conditions of a multinational empire, give up their national self-consciousness completely over time, becoming simply "Christians"? How much would the spread of Christianity have been accelerated by the industrialized Roman Empire, and in what other OTL non-Christian regions besides the Southern and Eastern Mediterranean would Christians be in the majority today? Would Islam have been prevented from emerging, or at least from becoming more than a local Middle Eastern religion? Would there be a Reformation, and if so, would it happen faster or slower and with what territorial scope would it be, compared to the OTL? And last but not least, if the adoption of Christianity had coincided with rapid material progress, instead of the Dark Ages brought about by the collapse of the Roman Empire, how would the attitudes toward Christianity of the intelligentsia differ in the ATL compared to the OTL?

 

[Evil Crusader]

The intersection of religious and economic developments in a timeframe that still is subject to vigorous debate is incredibly hard to pin down.
My instinct is that having the prerequisites of the Industrial Revolution - high literacy most specifically - likely butterflies Christianity as anything resembling OTL.

 

[HyperMuscularDemon]

If the Roman Empire undergoes a Industrial Revolution during the early years of Christianity, I can see Christianity potentially focusing on the industrial workers and factory workers to convert them by promising that harsh working conditions would not exist in Heaven. In fact, Christianity could become a sort of religious socialist movement, with demands for better treatment of workers.

 

[Simeon The Great]

If the Roman Empire undergoes a Industrial Revolution during the early years of Christianity, I can see Christianity potentially focusing on the industrial workers and factory workers to convert them by promising that harsh working conditions would not exist in Heaven. In fact, Christianity could become a sort of religious socialist movement, with demands for better treatment of workers.

I am of a different opinion because, as Mark Weber has found, the most deeply Christianized in traditional Europe were the artisans who depended on their own skills and enterprise for sustenance, while communism could most easily be imposed in a rural environment - the Maoist one after all strategy for "People's War" is precisely the encirclement of the cities from the countryside, and the purest communist regime - that of Pol Pot in Cambodia, forcibly evicted the citizens to the villages. Rather, Christianity will call for greater economic activity than in OTL. And about the "difficult conditions" - with the development of industry, the standard of living of the common man improved more and more, and in the villages, life was not good for the common man either.

 

[Evil Crusader]

I am of a different opinion because, as Mark Weber has found, the most deeply Christianized in traditional Europe were the artisans who depended on their own skills and enterprise for sustenance, while communism could most easily be imposed in a rural environment - the Maoist one after all strategy for "People's War" is precisely the encirclement of the cities from the countryside, and the purest communist regime - that of Pol Pot in Cambodia, forcibly evicted the citizens to the villages. Rather, Christianity will call for greater economic activity than in OTL. And about the "difficult conditions" - with the development of industry, the standard of living of the common man improved more and more, and in the villages, life was not good for the common man either.

However, that's because Christianity had a millennia and a half to get really entrenched and evolve. Such a development would not be with the proposed scenario, because it requires all the developments that made Christianity what it was in Weber's lifetime.

 

[anotherlurker]

"Industrial Revolution" also means that the state takes a firmer grip of the entire society, including its culture and religion. State Shinto in Japan, Kulturkampf in Germany, Kemalism in Turkey, Cultural Revolution in China, French Revolution in France etc. Christianity, being a foreign outsider cult with little tolerance for mainstream socity and the state, would face harsher resistance than OTL and depeding on when you start the roman indistrial revolution, much sooner.

 

[Kerney]

"Industrial Revolution" also means that the state takes a firmer grip of the entire society, including its culture and religion. State Shinto in Japan, Kulturkampf in Germany, Kemalism in Turkey, Cultural Revolution in China, French Revolution in France etc. Christianity, being a foreign outsider cult with little tolerance for mainstream socity and the state, would face harsher resistance than OTL and depeding on when you start the roman indistrial revolution, much sooner.

It might be undercut as well because the traditional institutions/religions were working well.

In contrast, in otl, the biggest watershed where the numbers of Christians increased pre-Constantine, was the Cyprian Plague of the 250s-260s, where traditional beliefs were not holding off disaster, things were not working well, the empire was fracturing etc.

Butterfly the 2nd half of the third century and Christianity goes nowhere fast and remains too small to matter.

 

[Flavius Iulius Maiorianus]

Inb4 the Roman industrial revolution is completely ASB.
OT: Didn't Christianity disapprove of greed and aquiring money?

 

[Flavius Iulius Maiorianus]

Butterfly the 2nd half of the third century and Christianity goes nowhere fast and remains too small to matter.

How would one do this? At some point Rome has to undergo an extended period of civil war; it was how the empire was founded after all.

 

[Simeon The Great]

OT: Didn't Christianity disapprove of greed and aquiring money?

In order to accumulate the capital needed for industrialization, it is necessary to lead a more ascetic life in the beginning. And this is not only among the Protestants, whose temples are less decorated than the Catholic and Orthodox ones, and in the field of art, the Catholic Southern German lands are developing better than the Protestant Northern ones, but also everywhere else where industry develops - for example, in my native Bulgaria Gabrovo was one of the first industrial centers, called "Bulgaria's Manchester" because of its thriving weaving industry in a Times newspaper article, and many jokes about its inhabitants describing them as stingy - for example, that the lizards appeared when a man from Gabrovo started breeding a crocodile.

 

[Triune Kingdom]

that the lizards appeared when a man from Gabrovo started breeding a crocodile.

Which is a lie. Everybody knows that lizards appeared when a man from Hvar was entrusted with feeding a crocodile.

 

[Lord High Executioner]

If the Roman Empire undergoes a Industrial Revolution during the early years of Christianity, I can see Christianity potentially focusing on the industrial workers and factory workers to convert them by promising that harsh working conditions would not exist in Heaven.

If memory serves, slaves were among the more notable groups of "early adopters" of Christianity in the Roman Empire,
with the implication/speculation that something like that was one of its attractions.

 

[Evil Crusader]

Inb4 the Roman industrial revolution is completely ASB.
OT: Didn't Christianity disapprove of greed and aquiring money?

Early on yes; the best example of this trend is John Chrisostomos and his legendarily scathing homilies on good stewardship of money. It also is a factor of, and from, the fact that Christianity started from the bottom, rather than being a religion of the traditional élites. As Christianity became the religion of the rich, too, that had to change, and when it was the religion of the rich urban middle class, the restrictions and stigma attached to usury that still exists to a moderate extent in the Muslim world also was phased out.
Now on the flipside - and fishing from factors that have been linked to the Protestant world's success in the age of the Industrial Revolution, the so-called 'work ethic' - there have been Christian movements that have argued for wealth as signs of personal virtue, again both as cause (virtuous behavior leading to success) and consequence (you are a good person, so God blesses you as He did with Salomon), leading to a pro-money, yet orthodox, Christian worldview.

 

[Simeon The Great]

If memory serves, slaves were among the more notable groups of "early adopters" of Christianity in the Roman Empire,

Yes, slaves were similar to factory workers in the fact that both groups were cut off from their natural environment, but they differed in the fact that the latter had to take the initiative to feed themselves, and in their efforts to educate themselves were able to raise their status - get a higher paying profession, while for a slave, if not freed, the most he could hope for was to become an overseer in charge of other slaves, but cruelty was required here.

 

[Simeon The Great]

Now on the flipside - and fishing from factors that have been linked to the Protestant world's success in the age of the Industrial Revolution, the so-called 'work ethic' - there have been Christian movements that have argued for wealth as signs of personal virtue, again both as cause (virtuous behavior leading to success) and consequence (you are a good person, so God blesses you as He did with Salomon), leading to a pro-money, yet orthodox, Christian worldview.

Luther had conservative economic views - otherwise he would not have created the thesis of "traditional rural piety", communist Protestant branches appeared such as the Münster Anabaptists, who established, according to some researchers, the first totalitarian regime in history, an English Protestant theologian wrote that honest poverty is better than dishonest wealth, and last but not least - in the Netherlands serfdom was abolished before the Reformation, and in some German states it continued to exist even after they became Protestant.

 

[Simeon The Great]

How would one do this? At some point Rome has to undergo an extended period of civil war;

It is entirely possible that one of the Warrior Emperors in OTL will become in ATL what Saint Constantine the Great is.

 

[Flavius Iulius Maiorianus]

Yes, slaves were similar to factory workers in the fact that both groups were cut off from their natural environment, but they differed in the fact that the latter had to take the initiative to feed themselves, and in their efforts to educate themselves were able to raise their status - get a higher paying profession, while for a slave, if not freed, the most he could hope for was to become an overseer in charge of other slaves, but cruelty was required here.

That's not entirely true. There's plenty of evidence that urban slaves in Rome were well educated and were basically allowed to manage businesses as they pleased. As I understand it, they were essentially granted ownership of the assets in the owner's name. It was called a peculium.

 

[Lord High Executioner]

Yes, slaves were similar to factory workers in the fact that both groups were cut off from their natural environment, but they differed in the fact that the latter had to take the initiative to feed themselves, and in their efforts to educate themselves were able to raise their status - get a higher paying profession, while for a slave, if not freed, the most he could hope for was to become an overseer in charge of other slaves, but cruelty was required here.

And that difference is relevant to the statement
"Since Christianity appealed to Roman slaves it is not unlikely that it could also appeal to Roman urban/industrialised labourers"
how?
Even if we don't add "...and this might affect how Christianuty develops or branches"?