The Peshawar Lancers - Questions

NapoleonXIV said:
Dammit, I misplaced my copy about halfway through some time ago and haven't found it yet. Now I'm going to have to tear my BR apart, because you guys have revived my interest.

I think the book only refers to ritual or ceremonial cannibalism. In OTL,
widespread ritual cannibalism among the Aztec is theorised to have been a useful supplement for diets deficient in protein.

And I wonder how a religion that actually does advocate the utter death of humanity originates and keeps going at all. Even Thuggee, although it looks pretty death cultish and did practice ritual murder and cannibalism itself, is in fact actually a worship of the "yang" rather than the "yin" aspects of existence. Its pretty hard to see any logical course other than suicide once you admit the gods are out to get you.

That being said, its a pretty good device to make one of the creepier villains I've seen.

I think with the Tchernobog cult, ritual cannibalism is a sort of "bonding" experience the members share. It's also a way to dispose of the leftovers from human sacrifices. Plus, apparently they teach cannibalism is some kind of unforgivable sin...the sinister Russian tyrannizes the traitor British bureaucrat by telling him that since he's eaten human flesh, he is damned. They also use it to terrorize the Uzbeks, Kazakhs, etc into submission...they're referred to as "human cattle" more than once.
 
OK, let's recapitulate this scenario.

A comet strikes the Earth. The biggest piece lands in the North Atlantic producing giant tsunami's that do graet damage to the coastal area's of eastern North America and western Europe and less so to eastern South America and western Africa. About a dozen or so lesser fragments strike Europe and the eastern part of North America.
Great amounts of dust and dirt has been thrown up in the atmosphere. This spreads around the globe, accompanied by an unseasonal cold front and an equally unseasonal rain front, blocking out much of the sunlight. Only a small fraction (if that) of that year's crop survives.
This is bad, but civilization would survive, if this were all.
Which it is not.

The North Atlantic Conveyor a.k.a. The Gulf Stream has been interrrupted, which causes unaccustomed cold in Europe (and current thinking is that once turned 'off', the Conveyor takes anything from a century to a millenium to get back to what it was before).
The ocean's phytoplankton does not react at all well to prolonged darkness (as nuclear winter studies have shown) and after 3 months or so experiences a population crash, that than percolates up the food chain.
The world's climate gets colder and (because less evaporation due to cold equals less precipitation) dryer, reducing the amount of land suitable for growing crops.
The blanket of dust takes several more years to disappear, reducing the sunlight and thereby the size of the harvest from the remaining land suitable for growing crops.
This means that the majority of the world's population, and the majority of North America's population is doomed to die, no matter what.

Climate-wise the humid sub-tropics like southeastern North America would be the most favored places in this situation. it remains warm enough to grow crops, unlike Europe, Central Asia and a sizable chunk of the Mid-West, and reduced evaporation through cold equals out reduced precipitation. In contrast most of the Mediterranean would become a semi-arid steppe, Egypt's Nile and the rivers of West Asia would be low, India's monsoon would largely fail, bad droughts would strike Java, Mexico, Cuba, the Sahel, and less bad droughts most of the rest of the tropics.
(See for some idea of this: http://members.cox.net/quaternary/

So compared to China southeastern North America has far fewer people claiming a share in the available food supply, because of a low population density, made still lower by the casualties from the tsunami's and impacts, a large proportion of land devoted to cash crops, that can be converted to food crops, and a minority which the popualtion is racist enough to sacrifice if need be.

So why should there not be State governments whith the ability to raise militia's, keep out the excess of the inevitable refugees from the north, expel/kill off non-WASPs, raise the Stars and Bars?

wkwillis said:
The majority of farmland was in the river bottoms in the south and west, and on the coast. On the river bottoms and the coast there was good soil, no rocks, easier to build roads (and railroads and steam boats) to transport it to markets.

The Appalachians, Florida, Bahama banks and Cuba stop the Tsunami's from damaging lands further west.

wkwillis said:
But if one of them hit at the confluence of the Ohio and the Mississipi, there would be godawful flooding while the water pooled upstream, and then godawful flooding when the water breached the dam and went downstream. The shore is the other location of good soil and that will be flooded by the tsunami.

That smacks of special pleading. How likely is one of them to hit THAT special location? Anyway the Ohio and the Mississipi are big rivers - a hole made by a comet fragment would merely make them a little deeper and a little broader. Big deal.

Zoomar: It's not that I'm especially fond of Americans.
 
JHPier
It was special pleading. Stirling wanted to make a world where only the British were left as a major power. Specifically the British who were running the Empire. Not the aristocracy of the Victorians, but the gentry.
To do that he had to kill off the Americans and especially the Californians and Texans, and ignore the Australians and Boers. Which he did.
Oh yeah. Comet winter does not shut down the conveyor belt. It speeds it up. The ecotome shifting is not current related.
 
wkwillis said:
JHPier
It was special pleading. Stirling wanted to make a world where only the British were left as a major power. Specifically the British who were running the Empire. Not the aristocracy of the Victorians, but the gentry.
To do that he had to kill off the Americans and especially the Californians and Texans, and ignore the Australians and Boers. Which he did..

Glad you admit it. Many AH fiction exhibits that trait I find. The author wants a particular outcome and twists his scenario to achieve that at the expense of probability.

wkwillis said:
Comet winter does not shut down the conveyor belt.

I didn't say that. The initial impact in the North Atlantic is supposed to do that.
 
On paleontology

Somewhere in the book, the was an offhand quote by Cassandra King regarding how an asteroid wiped out the dinosaurs "sixty-some million years ago". Strangely, I am somewhat skeptical that the Angrezi would've reached that conclusion. After all, the book mentions how the sciences in general were retarded (as compared to OTL) by the Fall, and I see no reason why paleontology, still forming in the late Victorian era, shouldn't suffer as well. Also, a lot of the data that has confirmed the asteroid hypothesis in OTL has come from the use of technology that the Angrezi probably won't develop for another 50-100 years, if OTL is something to judge by. Add to that a lot of groundwork for that theory was uncovered (by which I mean analyzing rock layers, old craters) in areas that, in the novel, are cannibal-packed hellholes. Not exactly conductive to paleontological research. I would have thought that the old ideas, such as death by climate change, plague, or rogue pulsar, would've held on longer.

Of course, if someone else has a better explanation, feel free to share.
 
Actually, they would probably come up with the idea of the dinosaurs getting hit by an asteroid sooner then in our time line, because an asteroid had actually hit the earth in TTL
 
JHPier said:
Glad you admit it. Many AH fiction exhibits that trait I find. The author wants a particular outcome and twists his scenario to achieve that at the expense of probability.



I didn't say that. The initial impact in the North Atlantic is supposed to do that.
Even a direct impact on a fygg (the sinks for cold arctic waters) would not shut down the conveyor belt. What would shut down the conveyor belt is a major freshwater flood in the arctic. I don't know how to do that with a comet.
 
Alasdair Czyrnyj said:
Okay, I FINALLY got ahold of this book, and am slowly working my way through it. I am wondering about a few things though.

*Why is there so much cannibalism? It seems like those in the British Raj view those left behind in Europe and America as thirsting for another's flesh. Are there any situations similar to the Fall in the past where people resort to cannibalism en masse? I was under the impression that is a line most people won't cross, but I may be wrong.

*Why the hell are the Russians cannibals AND devil-worshippers? Granted, losing the "third Rome" and the Tsar to a comet is bad, but how does abandoning Christianity altogether happen?

*Why does it seem to be taking so long to recivilize Britain? You'd think there'd be plenty of people interested in going back, and the actual work of setting up a colony wouldn't be that hard.

*The Germans are all dead, aren't they?

More questions to follow.


For more info on the story's universe you'll also want to read

Shikari in Galveston in Worlds that Weren't

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...thealter/104-8256014-4053556?v=glance&s=books
 
Okay. I've mulled over the paleontology issue a little more, and I have revised/created some ideas.

I figure that, while dinosaurs will still be known about and studied, the knowledge of them in the Peshawar TL will be less complete than in OTL, since a lot of large bonebeds in Europe and America will still be mostly unharvested, though those of India, Australia, and South Africa will be a bit more thoroughly explored. The Mongolian digs might not be quite as extensive in this TL as well, though that's uncertain.

As for the extinction theories, the fossil record will show that the dinosaurs died out fairly quickly at the end of the Createcous, and an analysis of the rocks at the K-T boundary layer will show a similar spread of elements to that found after the Fall. However, these elements will also resemble those that appear as a result of vulcanism, and the Angrezi will probably know more about the Deccan traps (the volcanic chain that blew about the same time the dinosaurs died), so there may be a healthy debate between the "meteorists" and the "vulcanists" of the universities of the Raj.

Well, isn't this nuts...I've created an alternate paleontology. And I'm getting criticized on it!
 
wkwillis said:
Even a direct impact on a fygg (the sinks for cold arctic waters) would not shut down the conveyor belt. What would shut down the conveyor belt is a major freshwater flood in the arctic. I don't know how to do that with a comet.

As you said yourself: "Stirling wanted to make a world where only the British were left as a major power. Specifically the British who were running the Empire. Not the aristocracy of the Victorians, but the gentry.
To do that he had to kill off the Americans and especially the Californians and Texans, and ignore the Australians and Boers. Which he did."
Guess he needed to shut down the conveyor belt too for that
 
JHPier said:
As you said yourself: "Stirling wanted to make a world where only the British were left as a major power. Specifically the British who were running the Empire. Not the aristocracy of the Victorians, but the gentry.
To do that he had to kill off the Americans and especially the Californians and Texans, and ignore the Australians and Boers. Which he did."
Guess he needed to shut down the conveyor belt too for that


And so what? Peshawar Lancers is fiction. Few good novels have their plots and backstories developed by a research and analysis of what might really happen, but by what the author thinks makes a cool, interesting, fictional story. Al that is necessary is that the story is vaguely possible - which PL is. If he wants no Americans, poof, no Americans. They all died. If he wants canibalistic devil-worshiping Russians and Polythesitic Anglican Anglo-Indians (a least as hard to imagine as the Russians in "reality"), he gets them. And it makes a neat alternate world, much more interesting than the more "realistic" ones Tutledove gives us in everything in the GW-AE-RE timeline.
 
I found it odd there is no USA too, the USA has some pretty darn hot areas which should be able to support people. The USA not as a power- thats right but no civilization in America at all, that doesn't make much sense. Texas or somewhere should remain alright for habitation.
 
Leej said:
I found it odd there is no USA too, the USA has some pretty darn hot areas which should be able to support people. The USA not as a power- thats right but no civilization in America at all, that doesn't make much sense. Texas or somewhere should remain alright for habitation.

Texas survives, according to "Shikari in Gavelston". Appearantly, by the 1990's, there are some small Amero-native city-states in southern Texas, though most everyone east of the Trinity River is cannibal. Presumably a similar situation occured in the southwestern US. But, again, I am also uncertain as to why there isn't a nation calling itself "America" that vaguely resembles the OTL USA.
 
Yeah. I'm wondering why everyone went back to being chieftains instead of minor "presidents" and "governors" as in The Postman by David Brin.

Anyhow...
1. The book says records are fuzzy, but what was the main impacts in Europe?
2. Why was Italy, Spain, and Greece devastated by the event? Did tsunamis get them or something. Otherwise, I would see the southern European powers taking advantage of the already weak Ottomans and sending their populations their, relocating the Vatican to Jerusalem, overrunning North Africa, etc. France wouldn't be the only one.
3. Are there any political maps out there of this?
4. Anyone want to make a similar ATL? :D
5. Say a bunch of Drakon get ISOT-ed to Central Asia. They have their superior strength, speed, and smarts, but weapons have no effect. Could they survive Stirling's other super bad guys, the Peacock Angel worshippers?
 
Why no Spain or Italy surviving? Probably the same reason a Mormon republic did not appear despite the religious obligation to maintain a year's supply of basic food stuffs. The author didn't want the inconvenience.
 
As for the lack of a New Italy or New Greece, neither of those countries was very high in the imperial game (either in naval transport, troops, or colonies), and both weren't well put together in the era in question (1878). My guess is that there would be something of a breakdown of national authority from the waves of refugees from the north and crop failures, resulting in mutinies, generic Balkan atrocities, with the only susviving outposts of Italian or Greek culture being in the "Greektowns" or "Little Italies" in France-outre-mer or the Egyptian Sultunate.

Spain and Portugal would suffer the same problems, but they might be able to get some people over to South America or Africa. Of course, the viability of these new homelands would be doubtful.
 
Strategos' Risk said:
3. Are there any political maps out there of this?

I'm going to have some time during the holidays, so I'll see if I can bang one out by next Monday. I've already got the basic borders figured out.
 
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