The Prince of Peace

Chris

Banned
Delisous

Anyway, my main impression is that this empire depends upon one man. What preperation is he making for the succession? If his son is weak, he might be dominated by the nobles, the pope, or both and lose most of the empire.

One possible other problem is that is the empire is somehow established and becomes dominant, it will stagnate. That's not good for technical development.

Final problem is what sort of noble class is henry creating?

Chris
 
query

So let me get this straight:

The Phillip who is attacking the city is Emporer Henry's brother right?

And the Phillip of France is an entirely different Phillip right?

And Issac is technically Henry's father-in-law?
 

Faeelin

Banned
Ayup. Apparently the medieval ages suffered from a scarcity of names, presumably due to some sort of copyright issue. This is why there are actually four ottos, three phillips, 2 henry's, and a Frederick in Germany.
 
Interesting, but...

I have a question about the Byzantine Emperor. In 1204, the Byzantine Emperor was Alexius III Angelus, who usurped and blinded his brother Isaac II (who usurped, blinded, and let the citizens of Constantinople kill his distant cousin Andronicus I Comnenus). But in ATL the emperor is said to be Andronicus not Alexius. What happened? Was there a another usurption (spelling) or what?

Besides that this is a very interesting TL, keep up the good work.
 

Faeelin

Banned
meries said:
I have a question about the Byzantine Emperor. In 1204, the Byzantine Emperor was Alexius III Angelus, who usurped and blinded his brother Isaac II (who usurped, blinded, and let the citizens of Constantinople kill his distant cousin Andronicus I Comnenus). But in ATL the emperor is said to be Andronicus not Alexius. What happened? Was there a another usurption (spelling) or what?
.

A typo, actually. That should still be Alexius III.
 

Faeelin

Banned
Okay, what do people think of this for a reconciliation? As relations with Innocent sink to new lows, Henry calls for a council in Constantinople under the Aegis of the Patriarch, attended by German, Sicilian, bishops, the partriarchs of antioch and jerusalem, and observers from Philip (of France).
 
Faeelin said:
Okay, what do people think of this for a reconciliation? As relations with Innocent sink to new lows, Henry calls for a council in Constantinople under the Aegis of the Patriarch, attended by German, Sicilian, bishops, the partriarchs of antioch and jerusalem, and observers from Philip (of France).

It sounds good to me. Henry can use the council to make sure power is divided between several Patriarchs, all equal to one another. But there is a problem, most of the Patriarchs are in the East while Rome has the West, including Germany and Sicily, to itself. Henry might ask for another Patriarch to be recognized in the West. That way Innocent has a rival for power in his own backyard so to speak. Suggestions:

Patriarch of Cologne (This way the German Emperors have some one in their pocket, but might be seen as giving Henry to much power and they may not want to go that far)

Patriarch of Paris (Way for Henry to enduring himself and the Empire to Philip and France, but could lead to a rival political power later on making the Empire ally with Rome!)

Patriarch of Ireland (Stops English expansion into Ireland, which will make Philip happy and the Irish. But may be too far away to counter Rome effectively)

Patriarch of Luxembourg/Or some other territory in-between France and Germany (This gives neither France or Germany exclusive power over the new Patriarch, but is close enough to Rome to be an effective counter.

This of course is just a suggestion, use it, don't use it. Doesn't matter. Its a great TL and like to see where it goes.
 

Faeelin

Banned
“The fateful moment is at hand when the tunic of Christ shall be rent again, when the bonds of Saint Peter shall be broken, the catholic unity dissolved”-Archbishop of Worms.

Adrianople, November, 1201

God, thought Theodore Lascaris, could work in mysterious ways. After the installation of the Hohenstaufens in the City, he had tried to set up a state in Nicaea from which to oppose the Germans. It had, it would seem, turned out to be futile.

For one thing, the Emperor’s pledge to restore the Empire’s finances by confiscating the estates of nobles in Anatolia and Thrace, and cutting down on imperial expenditures, had won him favor in the city. But even while doing that, he had dispatched an army to Asia Minor, to subdue Theodore’s “band of rebels”. Not even pausing to sop, Phillip’s army had continued to Nicaea, and Theodore’s hopes were dashed.

It was then that Phillip had offered him an interesting position. He could be the sebastocrator of Thessalonica; away from his center of power, Theodore would serve the Emperor by defeating the Bulgar hordes, who had been sent by Kalojan against the Empire. Theodore looked over his Sicilian and Greek troops. Good men. Better than the Bulgars, for certain. And if he won, well, who knew what the future held for a victorious general of Byzantium?

It would be said, after the battle, that the Pope called Kalojan King of the Bulgars. After the battle of Adrianople, Kalojan would be known as King of the dead[ 23].

Damietta, May, 1202

Richard laughed. “Henry thinks he can upstage me, can he? He may claim Byzantium and Jerusalem, but I shall lead the Christian armies against the capital of the Saracens, and sack their idolatrous cities of Mecca and Medina.”

Blondel, Richard’s favorite minstrel since his youth, refrained from rolling his eyes. Richard’s obsession was getting to be a bit much. Granted, Henry’s conquest of the Holy Land and Constantinople, and Sicily, was due in part to Richard’s ransom, but if he didn’t start paying more attention to things, he would end up with an arrow through his chest and a grave in desert.

Phillip also agreed. “I’ll grant you that Damietta seems ripe to fall within five months [24], but what then? Who will rule Egypt?”

Richard paused. That was, actually, a very good question. He’d be damned if he gave it to Henry. Quite literally, given the Pope’s new edicts.




Cremona, September, 1202
As usual with Henry, everything had come together rather nicely. The Council had not met in Rome or Constantinople, but rather in the Ghilbelline city of Cremona. It’s goals were nothing short of world shaking; the removal of Innocent and the reunion of Faith.

Unfortunately for Henry, they wouldn’t shut up about the Filioque. It wasn’t a question of whether or no the Holy Ghost proceeded from the Father and the Son as whether or not its use was legitimate. The Greeks cited the Council of Ephesus which said that no one could compose a face other than that defined at Nicaea, but the Latins held it was a clarification, and that the Greeks had already changed the doctrine.

It had taken three months and the placement of troops outside their chambers to have them agree that the Latin formula meant the same thing as the Greek where it was now agreed to proceed from the Father through the Son.

Then the issue of the Pope had come up. Henry, this time, had favored the Greek position. The Pope was first among equals in the patriarch’s ranks, and the Emperor was above them all. The Greeks would recognize Latin liturgy in the west; the Latins would recognize Greek liturgy in the Holy Land, but there Latin Liturgy would be used by the Kingdom. It was, thought Henry, a rather effective solution. The Council also considered the Donation of Constantine to be a sham, and declared that Sicily was part of the Kingdom of Italy.

The other issue was that of Innocent. The problem was that there was no procedure for ousting a Pope for unfitness; the ground used, then, was that Innocent had been found guilty of blasphemy, murder , simony, sorcery, failure to fats on fast days, heresy, and collusion with the infidel in supporting revolts in Sicily and the Kingdom of Jerusalem. Some of those charges were even true.

The Council, then, decreed that the Pope was deposed. The new Pope was to be chosen within a year; Henry was hoping for a French candidate, so as to woo Phillip to his side. Phillip, actually, was the only serious king who had sent delegates outside the Empire, although as observers only.

Not everyone agreed, of course. One of the French ones, from Paris, was especially annoying.*But what,” said the Bishop, “will you do with with Innocent?”

Henry smiled. “I leave it to men of God to decide what must be done in the service of God.” Henry thought of the Byzantine practice of eye gouging. Yes, that would do it.

The Lombards might prove difficult, but they could wait. He would offer them concessions to make them at least remain neutral, and deal with them when the time was ripe. Rome was not built in a day, after all. Rebuilding it would be Henry’s task until the day he died.

[23] Okay, a brief digression. Three powers thought they had the right to create kings. The Pope, the Emperor, and the Baesilus. The Baesilus and the Emperor are now the same dynasty, and the Pope was hoping that Kalojan would be able to defeat Phillip and unseat him, but Phillip, aware of the Pope’s negotiations (for, after all, Henry had considered giving Kalojan a crown) is able to sic Theodore on him. Demetrios is probably ecstatic that the Lascarids are in the game, but hey.

[24] Damietta is weaker than in the Fifth Crusade due in part to the fact that the Ayuibids haven’t had time to prepare for war, consolidate their holdings, and fortify the Nile. Having said that, the city is still no walkover.
 

Faeelin

Banned
Gah.Henry's got an army. He has sicily. He has Byzantine money.He has control of Central Italy. the Kings of France and England are in Egypt. Is Innocent fooked?

Thoughts?
 

Faeelin

Banned
Rome, August, 1202

“Octavian, by what aberration,
Do you seek to bring Rome to damnation?
How were you ever enticed
So to sever the tunic of Christ?”

The words of a Roman propagandist were running through Innocent’s mind. What could he do? Henry’s excommunication had failed; he’d merely joined the Greeks to his new Church under its Pope.

It was all Celestin’s fault, clearly. If he hadn’t sat by while Henry had surrounded Rome, there might have been a way out. As things were, what could Innocent do. He knew that there were those who whispered for accommodation with Henry, but there could be none. Henry would not be happy until the entire world was his.

There was, however, one place where he might find sanctuary. It was better, after all, to be the Pope in Rouen than Bishop in Nuremberg.

Rome, July, 1203

Henry laughed. “Pope Honorius III [25} should be pleased. The city of God shall soon be returned to the Empire.”

Henry’s army, massing in Sicily and Lombardy for much of 1202, had finally set out in 1203. He had relived his father’s triumph at Tusculum, shattering a force of twenty thousand. Rome itself lay exposed, and it had already been besieged by a Sicilian force in March. Now the Emperor had come for the final blow against the Antichrist. He’d even brought Frederick with him. A boy needed to learn how to campaign, even if he was a bit young, and these Italians should get used to seeing their future Emperor.

To the Imperial war cry, German troops had smashed the gates of the Leonine City, only to find that St. Peter’s basilica itself was ringed with strong points. It had held out for two weeks, but had finally fallen, and Henry VI walked unopposed towards St. Peter’s throne.

The altar of the basilica was stained with blood; the marble floors sticky with the blood of the dying. He walked through the Basilica, and smiled. It would be said by chroniclers that, as he walked through the Basilica, he could be heard saying, softly, “Omnes possessions mundi mei mee sunt”.

All the possessions in the world are mine.

[25] This is OTL’s Liupold, Bishop of Worms.

so, the pope's in flight to the plantagenet empire's main court, the kings are on the crusade, and the Emperor has taken Rome.

Anyone have comments?
 
Can the Western Kings actually take Egypt? What about the Muslim heartland, which OTL I believe has yet to fall to non-Muslims? More importantly, could they actually hang on to any of that while avoiding conquest by ze Germans?

If they can, that's one thing, but if they can't, we're looking at the utter destruction of recognizable history. Not that that in itself has to be a bad thing. Pax Romana 2: Deutschland Uber Alles
 

Faeelin

Banned
Admiral Matt said:
Can the Western Kings actually take Egypt? What about the Muslim heartland, which OTL I believe has yet to fall to non-Muslims? More importantly, could they actually hang on to any of that while avoiding conquest by ze Germans?

If they can, that's one thing, but if they can't, we're looking at the utter destruction of recognizable history. Not that that in itself has to be a bad thing. Pax Romana 2: Deutschland Uber Alles

I feel that given howclose they came in the 1220's, taking egypt is viable; and without Egypt, the balance of power in the mideast shifts towards the crusaders a lot. Might even end up with a viable outremer, although John will, I'm sure, disagree. (And even I'm skeptical).

The kings will of course return, but I've flipped a coin, and one dies.

And yes G.,things are looking grim.
 

Faeelin

Banned
August, Alexandria, 1203.

William of Norfolk looked around, shaking. He was, after all, only seventeen, a young age to be going on the crusades. He was on the top of the walls of Alexandria, and so far the Saracens didn’t realize that this part was undefended. But if they caught on, he would die a painful death, far from home, in an unmarked grave.

William silently scolded himself. It was not fitting for a warrior of Christ to be afraid at such a time as this. He ran towards the tower, while behind him more crusaders scaled up the wall. It was fortunate that the sentries had noticed that this part of the wall was undefended, but that was, William supposed, another sign of God’s favor.

He unsheathed his blade, and led his men foward. The conquest of Alexandria had begun.

June, Cairo, 1204

Philip thanked God that the crusade was over. He would build a Cathedral when he got home to celebrate the fact that he could now leave. And, he supposed, that Egypt was freed.

They had even decided who would rule it. Amaury, the King of Cyprus, seemed to be the man for the job [26]. They’d been negotiating it for a while now, and it was merely a question of finding some one to give him a crown.

Even Richard was happy, although he had to be dissuaded from trying to sail into the red sea against Mecca. He and Blondel were celebrating in their tent. The King of France was more annoyed than anything else. Didn’t Richard have something better to do than to carouse? There was the issue of the Papacy to deal with.

Phillip coughed. Damn it all, anyway. He’d been having headaches and chills for the past few days. It was this unhealthy climate, and as far as he was concerned, the damned Saracens were welcome to it. A few days of rest, and he would be fine.







Jerusalem, July, 1204

Hermann of Thuringia, Viceroy for Henry, King of Jerusalem, wondered, on his bad days, if the Lord Emperor hadn’t been punishing him by making Hermann his viceroy in Jerusalem. An unholy thought, but he was far from the only person to have such thoughts.

First there had been the issue of Antioch. Both Raymond Roupen, an Armenian who was the son of Raymond III. The merchants of Antioch had wanted to be ruled by Bohemond of Tripoli. It had taken all of his efforts to make them acknowledge Raymond Roupen as their lawful sovereign, and that in turn had angered Bohemond of Tripoli, who called in az-Zahir of Aleppo and Suleiman of Rum to join him in attacking Cilicia. It wasn’t until 1202 that he had gotten that mess under control.

And now this mess in Egypt. Ah, God. Who would’ve thought that it would be Philip who would die of plague? Why couldn’t it have been Richard? And now this mess with the Amaury. He hadn’t accepted Egypt yet, but he was King in all but name. He was slapping his overlord, the Lord Emperor, in the face, and something would have to be done [27]. Eventually.



[26] In part because everyone else is a vassal of Henry’s or one of his deputies.

[27] Cyprus received its crown, and hence its claim to a kingdom, from Henry. In return, Henry received the island of Cyprus as a vassal of the Empire; by supporting Innocent and grabbing what Henry feels should be the King of Jerusalem’s, he is slapping Henry in the face.
 

Faeelin

Banned
Nothing fancy, but a few people have asked for a map.

europe 1202.gif
 

Faeelin

Banned
London, July 4, 1204

Richard knelt before Innocent. He did not show it on the outside, but this was the happiest day of his life. His brother was King of England, was he?

Innocent finally concluded. “In these times of crisis, there are great and perilous threats to Christendom. The Holy See has been usurped; the Emperor is a tyrant; and Jerusalem has fallen under the banner of the Antichrist. . The false one has made an alliance with the Saracens, he has called upon their help to war against Christians, and his existence is an offense to God.”

A rather nice bit to hear, John thought. But he knew the script. ” Who would not rise up against him who joins the enemies of the cross?”

Innocent looked upon John, and nodded. “To John, gracious and most beloved by God, great and peace-loving Emperor, life and victory!”

There was a great cry outside the cathedral. The people were being treated to a sight that they had never seen; an elephant which Richard had sent home from the Crusade. One of many of the signs of the King and Emperor’s largesse, it would surely help win the people over to his new taxes.

Paris, October, 1204

Louis VIII was starting to hate the Church. What kind of God would let the Pope make John an Emperor? That was bad enough, but now the news from Egypt. How convenient for Richard that his father had died in Egypt, just after (amazingly) the crusade had finished. Richard could pretend all he wanted that he was innocent, but did he take Louis for a fool?

Well, let him. It would take more than a king and some pretender to the Imperial throne to frighten him. He would declare Richard a felon, and take his lands. The Plantagenets would pay for what they had done. As for the Pope…. Honorius would be most interested in Louis’s letter about rejoining the True Church.

Rouen, February, 1205

“How could you be so stupid? By Jesus’s balls [28], did you have to go and get into a pissing match with Henry? The title of Emperor?” Richard roared at John, who, for once in his life, was showing backbone.

“You’re the one who killed the King of France!”

”It was plague! It was the delta in Egypt! He wasn’t the only one!”

”That’s not what the French are saying!”

Richard resisted the urge to cut John’s head off with his sword. Control of one’s self was, according to the priests, important, and he would listen. Insufferable little brat, he thought. Maybe he should send John off to Ireland again.

“Honestly! What did you expect! Now we are in a war with Louis VIII and Henry!” Richard, by this point, was calming down. He was far from happy about it, but he wouldn’t mind seeing Henry beneath his horse’s hooves.

John looked at the Papal legate. “Don’t you think I realize that? But, as it turns out, the Pope can dispose of kingdoms as well as Empires, and there are many barons who are dissatisfied with Louis and Henry. And apparently, at one point there was a Roman Empire spanning France and England.”

Richard was beginning to see. He looked at the Pope’s delegate. Innocent could be cunning, indeed. He would not mind being Richard I of France.

[28] More proof that medieval curses are weird.
 
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