Hope this hasn't been posted on before, but WI the Viking settlements- Vinland, Markland- established in north America 300 yrs prior to Columbus had managed to survive ? How would a Viking north America have looked and influenced the rest of the world, and in terms of relations with the local SKRAELINGS ?
Viking settlements in America survive
- Thread starter Melvin Loh
- Start date
For all their ferocious reputation. Vikings were relatively benign when it came to local populations, marrying into them rather than wiping them out.
Additionally, the mythologies of that period were much more in line with those of the Skraeling tribes. A good book that explores this niceli is De Camp's Wheels of If.
You could also look into some of the ideas laid out in the A-S writings in the novel sections.
Additionally, the mythologies of that period were much more in line with those of the Skraeling tribes. A good book that explores this niceli is De Camp's Wheels of If.
You could also look into some of the ideas laid out in the A-S writings in the novel sections.
Say, isn't the Little Ice Age going to start within 100-200 years of the colonization. IIRC, the Greenland Vikings were essentially cut off from the rest of the world by that climate change. Might the New World colonies become similarly isolated. Also, suppose that the Vikings do establish settlements but lose contact with Europe. What sort of interactions would occur when the more modern Europeans return to the Americas?
Melvin Loh said:
Well, if you read my Saite Egypt timeline on the "Ancient Egypt Survives to the Present Day" thread, that is one of the things that happens. Basically it postulates that the Skraelings would have been decimated by European diseases, but would have gained such things as iron-working, wheat, pigs, cattle, and horses, which would have revolutionized the Skraeling societies when these things are introduced. Europe, on the other hand, is introduced to tobacco about 300 years ahead of time, giving the Norse incredibly profitable trade item which enables the Norse to consolidate as a united kingdom and maintain themselves as such for centuries. .
robertp6165 said:
If all of these things are introduced a good 400 years before Spanish arrival, Native American societies would almost certainly develop at a much faster pace than OTL. More advanced Indian nations (such as the Creeks, Aztecs, or Iroquois. Well, the Iroquois would most likely be swallowed up by Norse colonization.) would probably be much stronger than they were. Even the Navajo and Apache regions of the southwest could give birth to a strong empire. They probably wouldn`t hold weight to Europe on their own, but a united Native American army could potentially hold off invasions and the like. Horses and ironworking and such would probably allow for much greater contact between the societies.
Until tobacco seed found its way to Europe and everybody started growing their own.robertp6165 said:
Anthony Appleyard said:
Unless, as in the TL, nobody but the Norse knows where the tobacco is coming from for a long time, and the Norse control the only trade route to the Americas for a long period, and the Norse don't allow the seed to be exported. But of course, once the secret does leak out, what you say would undoubtedly be true.
tetsu-katana said:
The Creeks and the Iroquois didn't exist as such at the time the Norse were colonizing. The Creeks arose out of the survivors of the Southern Mississippian culture after it was destroyed by the epidemics traveling in the wake of Hernando de Soto's expedition in the early 16th Century. The Iroquois Confederacy also formed, for different reasons, in the mid-16th Century. And you ignore the disruption that the huge epidemics caused by sustained contact with Europeans....smallpox and Black Death, to name two major ones...would certainly have caused. It will take the natives some time to recover from these, and in the interim, the Norse could greatly expand at the expense of the Skraelings. But your main point is good. The introduction of the European livestock, grain, and ironworking techniques would cause far-reaching changes, and make some of the native tribes (once they have recovered from the epidemics) formidable opponents. Most of the eastern tribes are probably toast, as they will not recover sufficiently to absorb the technology and food items into their cultures before the Norse move in and take over. But the tribes west of the Mississippi may be a very different story. The idea of a "united native American army," however, is rather far fetched. They were never able to unite in the OTL. The same tribal hatreds are going to be there. I just don't see most of them uniting in this TL, either.
the big problem with the OTL Norse colony in Vinland (the only one known for sure is the one found at L'Anse Aux Meadows.... the one storied about in the Viking sagas may be that one, or may be somewhere else, undiscovered yet) is that the Norse were too few. The colony was a private venture by Greenlanders, and lacked numbers and resources. What if one of the Norse kings in Scandinavia took an interest in Vinland and chartered a royal colony there, giving it everything needed to survive? If this happens before the big deep freeze sets in, there would be a much better chance for it to survive....
David Howery said:
That's what happened in my Saite timeline. King Olaf Tryggvasson decided to send organized colonization expeditions over a ten year period to establish the colonies.
robertp6165 said:
I know this. I was merely talking about the large Native nations at the OTL arrival of the Europeans. When the Norse colonized North America, no strong (even by Native American nation standards) existed.
The idea of unified Native tribes is, I`ll admit, pretty far-fetched, for OTL at least. After all, the powers of Europe, who have been fighting for thousands of years, have only begun to unite in the last century. But the possibility is far greater if the die-off from disease occurs in 1100-1200; a good three or four hundred years early, and European livestock arrives and makes its way through the continent.
With all the talk of the effect on native populations, one, perhaps greater, question is still there- How would Europe be affected by a consolidated and strong Norse Empire?
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David Howery said:
In my Second Carthaginian Empire thread, the Slavs (fleeing from Magyar and Frankic persecution) found colonies in Labrador and Nova Scotia, and along the St. Lawrence river, under the auspices of the Norwegian king, who nominally owns the colonies. The northmen start expanding into north america around 1200, followed by Frankic and Visigothic settlements in OTL New England about 1250-1275. By this time the original Slav settlers have created a small, strong, mixed-population colony which they've governed quite well on their own, thank you very much. When the norse realize how potentially rich the new land is, they send royal governors to administer the colony - it IS theirs, after all... chaos ensues.
Why? This would mean that the natives would hold out better against the Europeans, and would actually give them less reason to unite.tetsu-katana said: